Octopus insisting we have a smart meter

Gerry1

Ildhund said:

... it receives a signal to switch on and does nothing else until it receives another one to switch off.

No Sir, that's not how it works.  As I've repeatedly posted, if it worked that way every student household with E7 would have been on permanent cheap rate just by screening the meter one night to prevent it decoding the "Charge Peak Rate Now" signal in the morning.

Will your clock radio fail to wake you up if you didn't check it against the pips?  Of course not ! And surely you don't think they'll magically be able to replace nearly 800,000 RTSs by June?

Newbie_John

Short term it should probably be OK.
But long term, nothing stops energy provider from withdrawing E7 rates for customers on "out of date" meters - that would be a good incentive.. you want TOU rates - get smart meter.

And then enjoy variety : Agile, Tide, Lifestyle, Tracker, Smile, Cosy..

Gerry1

Newbie_John said:

Short term it should probably be OK.

Glad you've changed your mind since 1:37PM !

Newbie_John said:

But long term, nothing stops energy provider from withdrawing E7 rates for customers on "out of date" meters

Having a standalone RTS is not the same as having a meter which is no longer certified.

Suppliers would be in breach if they overcharged on an E7 fix before its end date.

masonic

Gerry1 said:

Ildhund said:

... it receives a signal to switch on and does nothing else until it receives another one to switch off.

No Sir, that's not how it works.  As I've repeatedly posted, if it worked that way every student household with E7 would have been on permanent cheap rate just by screening the meter one night to prevent it decoding the "Charge Peak Rate Now" signal in the morning.

Will your clock radio fail to wake you up if you didn't check it against the pips?  Of course not ! And surely you don't think they'll magically be able to replace nearly 800,000 RTSs by June?

Once upon a time my landlord got in an "electrician" to do a safety inspection. Several issues arose immediately after that, including my meter being permanently stuck on day rate. It turned out he had disconnected and removed the RTS. Thankfully he had not disposed of it and was able to put it back a few days later. LL thought there was no need for it anymore as he'd removed the NSH and replaced with panel heaters on the normal circuit.

Scot_39

Gerry1 said:

Ildhund said:

... it receives a signal to switch on and does nothing else until it receives another one to switch off.

No Sir, that's not how it works.  As I've repeatedly posted, if it worked that way every student household with E7 would have been on permanent cheap rate just by screening the meter one night to prevent it decoding the "Charge Peak Rate Now" signal in the morning.

Will your clock radio fail to wake you up if you didn't check it against the pips?  Of course not ! And surely you don't think they'll magically be able to replace nearly 800,000 RTSs by June?

The 800,000 figure was used by Ofgem in mid Oct.  At the launch of the RTS replacement taskforce.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/press-release/energy-sector-taskforce-unites-tackle-radio-teleswitch-challenge

The UK has however been replacing over 3/4m meters with smart meters per quarter in the last few years - higher in fact in past.  

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66589b088f90ef31c23ebc73/Q1_2024_Smart_Meters_Statistics_Report.pdf

However the last Elexon chart I saw - suggested only done about 120,000 RTS last year - and had c780,000 remaining as of Q4 1st Dec

https://www.elexon.co.uk/data/trading-operations-report/metering-data-trading-operations-report/.

So if they were to focus - replacing the remaining RTS should be possibly in just 3 months - let alone the 8 months from Oct to June cut off proposed.  

April should be comfortable - June a doddle - just stop most other installs - and use say 80-90% of metering teams on RTS - problem solved.

But with some suppliers starting late to the game - they have a lot to work to meet the June target.

But there is some evidence that suppliers like Ovo - have picked up the pace - on likes of THTC roll out with E10 smart meters - with a new targeted strategy for fitting teams for those remaining on THTC - from Aug 24 according the their user forum.  Having previously targetter RTS E10 and some other legacy tariff set-ups.

It will be interesting to see if the next Elexon quarterly update shows a real rate of replacement / improvement.

However - the industry has done a very bad job in providing suitable configured meters for the last few years.  Both Ovo and SP were telling folk they had no solution as recently as a year to 18m ago - and still working on it.   

And remain to be convinced everyone is getting a fully like for like - replacement.  

Which is yet another failure of Ofgem over the last n years.

Qyburn

Gerry1 said:

Ildhund said:

... it receives a signal to switch on and does nothing else until it receives another one to switch off.

No Sir, that's not how it works.

How does it work with THTC where the charge times are potentially different every day? Speculating, if the RTS signal pushes those times down to the local clock/meter/whatever, then after switch off in June maybe the installation will be left stuck on charge times set for June and therefore insufficient for Autumn or Winter.

Newbie_John

Gerry1 said:

Newbie_John said:

Short term it should probably be OK.

Glad you've changed your mind since 1:37PM !

Newbie_John said:

But long term, nothing stops energy provider from withdrawing E7 rates for customers on "out of date" meters

Having a standalone RTS is not the same as having a meter which is no longer certified.

Suppliers would be in breach if they overcharged on an E7 fix before its end date.

I haven't changed my mind, just clarified my message.

I've replaced my old E7 meter to SMETS2 about two years ago - and it was one of the best decisions I could have done. Helped me to understand how much each thing costs in the house, during the first year on Agile I've saved about £1000 on electricity, now with TE Lifestyle saving £150 during each winter month. 

I honestly can't understand people hesitance and if all people switched the choice of TOU tarrifs would increase allow us for even more savings.
Sure there were some issues especially with older smart meters, but there are issues with hotels, flights - and people still happily travel as chances are low.

Scot_39

Qyburn said:

Gerry1 said:

Ildhund said:

... it receives a signal to switch on and does nothing else until it receives another one to switch off.

No Sir, that's not how it works.

How does it work with THTC where the charge times are potentially different every day? Speculating, if the RTS signal pushes those times down to the local clock/meter/whatever, then after switch off in June maybe the installation will be left stuck on charge times set for June and therefore insufficient for Autumn or Winter.

Even 5 hrs provides a decent amount of heat - mines ax a low user only got close to 5 hrs during the sub zero days / nights last month.

Probably enough for many others for early autumn.

But even if not the autumn either Sep 1st or say autumn equinox - c22 Sep time - buys suppliers another say 2-3m from June cutoff and maybe 4 or 5 before the 5 hr becomes critically low in parts of uk.

If they cannot re deploy nearly 800,000 per quarter meter install capacity to sort this to cover rts in 8 months since tgd 800,000 figure or 7 months since Dec 1st 780,000 figure - then large fines and arguably heads should roll - at suppliers like Ovo and SP in particular  and Ofgem  including the recent managing directors new contract.

Gerry1

Qyburn said:

Gerry1 said:

Ildhund said:

... it receives a signal to switch on and does nothing else until it receives another one to switch off.

No Sir, that's not how it works.

How does it work with THTC where the charge times are potentially different every day? Speculating, if the RTS signal pushes those times down to the local clock/meter/whatever, then after switch off in June maybe the installation will be left stuck on charge times set for June and therefore insufficient for Autumn or Winter.

Yes, it'll download a carousel of times, and after the switch-off it would freewheel on whatever it had last been,or a default.  What it won't do (and never has) is to respond to single commands 'Start Cheap Rate Now' and 'Start Peak Rate Now'.  That's such an obvious security failing that it would never have been allowed because it would have been so trivially easy to abuse, so fraud would have soon become widespread; unlike a smart meter, it's very easy to screen an RTS.

But for simple E7 users on static timings there wouldn't be much difference if they still had an RTS but the Long Wave signal had been switched off.

Qyburn

Scot_39 said:

Qyburn said:

How does it work with THTC where the charge times are potentially different every day? Speculating, if the RTS signal pushes those times down to the local clock/meter/whatever, then after switch off in June maybe the installation will be left stuck on charge times set for June and therefore insufficient for Autumn or Winter.

Even 5 hrs provides a decent amount of heat - mines ax a low user only got close to 5 hrs during the sub zero days / nights last month.

Remember that THTC systems were designed with the expectation of up to 12 hours charge in several blocks, and with the fallback of direct heat available at any time on a discounted tariff. I don't think we could make a sweeping assertion that they'd be fine with fewer hours.