Purchasing a new home with electric heaters

FreeBear

hrm1987 said: Is the money better spent on internal insulation? Or is the only long term solution a combination of this and a new heating system? 

If this period property is listed, there will be a limit on what you can do before having to apply for Listed Building Consent. But as you say this place has an EPC, I guess it isn't listed.

Internal wall insulation, whilst helping to reduce heat loss, takes a long time to recover the investment - I've insulated some of the solid 9" brick walls here (have a mix of cavity & solid walls), and haven't really noticed much of an improvement. Loft insulation and blocking off all the cold draughts have been very effective (as has the well fitted double glazing).

mmmmikey

Ildhund said:

No-one seems to have mentioned the log burner. That's what I use as my primary source of heat, but of course it depends on how big and efficient yours is, and where it's located. Mine is rated at 5kW, and it doesn't take long to bring my largish (40 m²) living room up to comfort level. Otherwise, I have to turn on the 2kW fan heater in the bathroom for 10-15 minutes to defrost it before showering in the winter if I'm to avoid hypothermia. Other heating is electric blankets - over if I'm up, under if I'm not for an hour before bed. At 60 W rating, they cost pennies to run.

Using barn-dried wood from a reputable local chap, I get 1 m³ for £130 neatly stacked in the stable. That's allegedly about 350 kg - 4-500 logs at about 0.8 kg each. Six logs is enough to keep the fire hot from sundown-ish to bedtime; what effect that has on the indoor temperature depends a lot on how cold the room was to start with and how cold it is outside, but in general it's plenty comfortable for me. With an average CV of ~4.2 kWh/kg, the price to compare is around 
130/350 £/kg / 4.2 kWh/kg ≈ 9 p/kWh. More than gas, but a lot less than electricity, depending on the fire's efficiency (perhaps 70-80% at its best). Add £50 p.a. for the chimney sweep.

In other news, I agree with all those who treat 'economical' direct heaters with the disdain they deserve. Oil-fired central heating will cost a lot in plumbing work and its attendant disruption along with the cost of the boiler and fuel storage. I would be looking at air-to-air heat pumps in your situation, at a price of the same order of magnitude as night-storage heaters (NSH). If an A2AHP is properly designed and configured, you could be looking at an effective price per kWh of 8-12 p, probably less than you'd be paying with NSH, and running it backwards would give you posh air conditioning in the summer (!).

I think this post has got a bit lost here. Before doing anything with the heating, I'd suggest you see how you get on with the log burner first. If you use the log burner you may find you only need a minimal amount of heat from the Fischer heaters to keep the house warm and it's not enough to justify the cost of replacement.  Or you may find there's really only one or two spots in the house that get cold and you can choose replacement electric heaters (probably HHR storage heaters or air-to-air heat pumps). That's one of the advantages of electric heating - it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Also, if you have a smart meter and choose an appropriate tariff, you can set the heaters accordingly which is a good way of reducing the cost. A strategy of getting most of your heat from the logburner, switching to Octopus Agile and just using the Fischer heaters to stop the temperature falling too low overnight might work perfectly well for you. A lot depends on your lifestyle, how many people live with you, how much you are home, etc.

There's no doubt about it, if you use the Fischer heaters to replicate what you'd do with central heating your costs are likely to be eye-wateringly expensive. So I wouldn't disagree with the general comments about direct electric heating here.

But neither would I rush to replacing them. If you've never had a log burner before, you're in for a pleasant and welcoming surprise. There's nothing like coming inside on a cold day and sitting in front of a real fire with a steaming hot cup of tea ( if you want the complete experience, you'll need a whistling kettle too )

QrizB

Obligatory whistling kettle thread (one of MSE's featured ones!):

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6581943/anyone-using-a-whistle-kettle-on-the-gas-hob

EssexHebridean

A huge amount is going to depend on the size of that log burner I suspect - it's a question you could ask the agents to ask the sellers, in fact. If they say "err...no idea" without the qualification that it was already there when they moved in, then chances are IMO that it was put in for aesthetics, not warmth. We have an open fire in our living room - it does a lovely job of warming that room, heats the hallway a little, and takes the edge off the (directly above) bedroom by way of warming the chimney and general convection - it certainly doesn't come close to heating the home though, as it really is a relatively small fireplace and was clearly only fitted for its looks. (Indeed our sellers freely admitted that they almost never used it, in part because of the faff of clearing it out and relaying. By contract we use it pretty much every weekend - as much for the ambience as for the extra cosyness). 

QrizB

EssexHebridean said:

A huge amount is going to depend on the size of that log burner I suspect

And on the size of the property! I don't think the OP has said whether it's a two-up, two-down Victorian terrace or a forty-room Regency mansion.

A little 3kW nominal output wood stove might be everything you need in the former, but even a 12kW monster would be lost in the latter.

FreeBear

EssexHebridean said:  We have an open fire in our living room - it does a lovely job of warming that room, heats the hallway a little, and takes the edge off the (directly above) bedroom by way of warming the chimney and general convection - it certainly doesn't come close to heating the home though, as it really is a relatively small fireplace and was clearly only fitted for its looks.

Most of the heat will be disappearing straight up the chimney (some 80% or more). And when you are not using the fire, 2kWh of heat will be going up there - Fit a chimney sheep, and you can cut the heat loss down to about 800Wh.

I replaced an open fire with a 6.4kW inset stove Without the fire lit, the room doesn't get as cold as it used to. Light it up, and it heats the whole house - Should have fitted a 4kW or smaller stove...

lohr500

mmmmikey said:

I think this post has got a bit lost here. Before doing anything with the heating, I'd suggest you see how you get on with the log burner first. If you use the log burner you may find you only need a minimal amount of heat from the Fischer heaters to keep the house warm and it's not enough to justify the cost of replacement.  Or you may find there's really only one or two spots in the house that get cold and you can choose replacement electric heaters (probably HHR storage heaters or air-to-air heat pumps). That's one of the advantages of electric heating - it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Also, if you have a smart meter and choose an appropriate tariff, you can set the heaters accordingly which is a good way of reducing the cost. A strategy of getting most of your heat from the logburner, switching to Octopus Agile and just using the Fischer heaters to stop the temperature falling too low overnight might work perfectly well for you. A lot depends on your lifestyle, how many people live with you, how much you are home, etc.

There's no doubt about it, if you use the Fischer heaters to replicate what you'd do with central heating your costs are likely to be eye-wateringly expensive. So I wouldn't disagree with the general comments about direct electric heating here.

But neither would I rush to replacing them. If you've never had a log burner before, you're in for a pleasant and welcoming surprise. There's nothing like coming inside on a cold day and sitting in front of a real fire with a steaming hot cup of tea ( if you want the complete experience, you'll need a whistling kettle too )

Personally, I think it is important the OP needs to do as much as possible to establish the likely running costs of the existing heaters and the cost to replace with some other form of heating BEFORE buying the house.

It's too late to discover after purchase that it is prohibitively expensive to keep it warm.  

It would be helpful to get some idea of the size of the property, number of rooms/ lifestyle etc, but it is still a guessing game based on estimates. Keeping a single small room comfortably warm in the depths of winter using a single direct electric heater or the log burner, is one thing. Keeping an old multi roomed high ceiling property warm throughout is a completely different challenge and expense.

Buying blind and then applying trial and error to find a cost effective heating solution wouldn't be a gamble that I would be prepared to take.

 

t0rt0ise

I live in a solid wall house and once it gets warm it stays warm for ages. The walls act as giant storage heaters so my end wall (end terrace) heats up and stays so. In the summer we boil! In the winter not so much but that's partly because the heating thermostat is in a silly place and it's difficult to keep a steady temperature. I turn the heating off overnight and the main rooms do not cool down.

EssexHebridean

FreeBear said:

EssexHebridean said:  We have an open fire in our living room - it does a lovely job of warming that room, heats the hallway a little, and takes the edge off the (directly above) bedroom by way of warming the chimney and general convection - it certainly doesn't come close to heating the home though, as it really is a relatively small fireplace and was clearly only fitted for its looks.

Most of the heat will be disappearing straight up the chimney (some 80% or more). And when you are not using the fire, 2kWh of heat will be going up there - Fit a chimney sheep, and you can cut the heat loss down to about 800Wh.

I replaced an open fire with a 6.4kW inset stove Without the fire lit, the room doesn't get as cold as it used to. Light it up, and it heats the whole house - Should have fitted a 4kW or smaller stove...

It's thankfully got its own baffle that pulls into place when the fire's out and cold...I assumed this would be a bit rubbish but fair play, a candle flame tells me it's actually surprisingly effective! 

But yes to the heat up the chimney of course. Had we been the ones fitting it, we'd have enlarged the recess a bit and then fitted a multifuel burner for sure, but the cost involved in doing that now and retrofitting when we have something in place which does what we need right now puts it a long way down the list of priorities! 

Spoonie_Turtle

lohr500 said:

mmmmikey said:

I think this post has got a bit lost here. Before doing anything with the heating, I'd suggest you see how you get on with the log burner first. If you use the log burner you may find you only need a minimal amount of heat from the Fischer heaters to keep the house warm and it's not enough to justify the cost of replacement.  Or you may find there's really only one or two spots in the house that get cold and you can choose replacement electric heaters (probably HHR storage heaters or air-to-air heat pumps). That's one of the advantages of electric heating - it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Also, if you have a smart meter and choose an appropriate tariff, you can set the heaters accordingly which is a good way of reducing the cost. A strategy of getting most of your heat from the logburner, switching to Octopus Agile and just using the Fischer heaters to stop the temperature falling too low overnight might work perfectly well for you. A lot depends on your lifestyle, how many people live with you, how much you are home, etc.

There's no doubt about it, if you use the Fischer heaters to replicate what you'd do with central heating your costs are likely to be eye-wateringly expensive. So I wouldn't disagree with the general comments about direct electric heating here.

But neither would I rush to replacing them. If you've never had a log burner before, you're in for a pleasant and welcoming surprise. There's nothing like coming inside on a cold day and sitting in front of a real fire with a steaming hot cup of tea ( if you want the complete experience, you'll need a whistling kettle too )

It would be helpful to get some idea of the size of the property, number of rooms/ lifestyle etc, but it is still a guessing game based on estimates. Keeping a single small room comfortably warm in the depths of winter using a single direct electric heater or the log burner, is one thing. Keeping an old multi roomed high ceiling property warm throughout is a completely different challenge and expense.

Bear in mind also that lifestyle can change in the blink of an eye - accident, acute illness with permanent effects, bereavement - and even if it doesn't, if you plan to stay there until old age, future-proofing should be a consideration.  Obviously be realistic according to current lifestyle and preferences but if one choice future-proofs better than another, that should at least be taken into consideration.