Permitted Development & Garage Outside Property Boundary

mj1

Hi, hoping we might get some insight from those reading this on an interesting situation. 

We have an old property which is mid terrace and a long garden with a small pathway at rear of property to our garage attached to neighbours garage. (Old 1950's asbestos roof & concrete garages joined). The pathway to our garage is owned by the neighbour.

Both us and our neighbours want to improve the garages by taking down the two old ones and build two new ones within permitted development. Thus removing safely the asbestos and giving both houses a garage that can be used as the current ones are too narrow to park a modern car in.

This will involve the neighbour converting some of their garden to driveway to give more space and allow two new slightly larger garages (4m x 5.5m x 2.5m high) Steel and all within in permitted development sizes.

Basically a stretch of 2 meters wide by 16 meters long of neighbours garden is being given up to benefit both properties by widening the driveway space.

While we do not own the pathway to the garage from our property we do have a legally documented right of way and the sole responsibility for maintaining that path to the garage. 

We also have a clear legally documented right of use to the shared driveway the land being owned by the neighbour.

To replace our existing garage do we need planning permission? 

Do we need to update the land registry with the new layout and change of pathway?

Section62

mj1 said:

Hi, hoping we might get some insight from those reading this on an interesting situation. 

We have an old property which is mid terrace and a long garden with a small pathway at rear of property to our garage attached to neighbours garage. (Old 1950's asbestos roof & concrete garages joined). The pathway to our garage is owned by the neighbour.

Both us and our neighbours want to improve the garages by taking down the two old ones and build two new ones within permitted development. Thus removing safely the asbestos and giving both houses a garage that can be used as the current ones are too narrow to park a modern car in.

This will involve the neighbour converting some of their garden to driveway to give more space and allow two new slightly larger garages (4m x 5.5m x 2.5m high) Steel and all within in permitted development sizes.

Basically a stretch of 2 meters wide by 16 meters long of neighbours garden is being given up to benefit both properties by widening the driveway space.

While we do not own the pathway to the garage from our property we do have a legally documented right of way and the sole responsibility for maintaining that path to the garage. 

We also have a clear legally documented right of use to the shared driveway the land being owned by the neighbour.

To replace our existing garage do we need planning permission? 

Do we need to update the land registry with the new layout and change of pathway?

Can you post a sketch of the layout - my interpretation of what you've written means what you are proposing probably isn't permitted development and would need full planning consent, but a sketch plan would help to confirm this, particularly if you can show the limit(s) of the land you own.

mj1

Hi sorry was busy yesterday afternoon / evening here is a drawing that might help.



 
The Wall at A is planned to be moved into the neighbours garden by around 2 meters to allow for 2 decent sized garages to replace the 2 concrete ones and a 3rd wood lean to on the right boundary line.

If we needed full planning then I guess we could see if the neighbour would sign over the pathway to extend our boundary to include the garage in red high light.

Section62

mj1 said:

Hi sorry was busy yesterday afternoon / evening here is a drawing that might help.

The Wall at A is planned to be moved into the neighbours garden by around 2 meters to allow for 2 decent sized garages to replace the 2 concrete ones and a 3rd wood lean to on the right boundary line.

If we needed full planning then I guess we could see if the neighbour would sign over the pathway to extend our boundary to include the garage in red high light.

Yes, that is more or less what I was expecting to see, and unfortunately AIUI you would need full consent because the garage is not within the curtilage of the house.

You could try changing the boundaries to avoid the need for the full application, but to be honest for the modest cost involved in making a full application it would almost certainly be much cheaper to do that than incur the legal costs of swapping land around.

If you are going through planning then I'd also talk through some other options with the neighbour - for example if the garage block is rotated 90 degrees then you could have your garage contiguous with your plot which would make it easier for access (and running electricity to it).  It may also be possible to avoid moving the wall 'A' by the 2 meters proposed - e.g. as per the sketch below.  If the third garage also belongs to one of you and that could be got rid of then it may be possible to adjust the boundary as per the green line (subject to doing maneuverability checks) which would minimise the neighbour's net loss of garden.

My sketch is just for illustration - if the turning is too tight there is still the option of moving the garage block further back into your plot.  It will also help if the garage can be kept away from the rear boundary, and in any event you might want to keep an access strip there for maintenance and to get into the rear garden without going through the garage.

mj1

Hi @Section62

Thanks for your time and suggestions alas we are not able to move the garage spot as suggested and the easiest option is to demolish the three and place two bigger ones and move the neighbours wall slightly

The next door owners want the smallest amount of garden impacted and they would lose more with the above suggestion and would have to look at the side of a garage in their garden. (At moment garages are out of sight lines)

Also there are other structures not shown that would not allow for that idea.

So thank you it does seem either we need planning approval or to obtain land to our garage land to connect it to our property.

I am still trying to assess if we need to let the land registry know so if anyone has any pointers in regards to that it would be helpful. 

Thanks

user1977

The Land Registry won't care about what's actually on the ground, but if you're transferring ownership of the land (and/or removing or adding access rights) then you will want to register those. Be aware that any mortgage lenders will also need to be involved.

mj1

user1977 said:

The Land Registry won't care about what's actually on the ground, but if you're transferring ownership of the land (and/or removing or adding access rights) then you will want to register those. Be aware that any mortgage lenders will also need to be involved.

Thanks no mortgage lenders involved as both owned outright.

Our new garage will be larger than the old one and taking up more space so will not reflect what is currently shown on the title map.

It is a small adjustment from the original 2.5 meters wide garage to a new 4 meters wide.

The access right will need to reflect the new path position which will move as the garage will be wider.

Not sure if I need to get a solicitor involved or if we can handle it ourselves with the neighbour? - More googling to do...

Thanks 

Land_Registry

Whilst you don't have to use a solicitor in this scenario I think you would be prudent to do so. It seems that you are not only transferring land to alter who owns what it seems but also altering existing rights. Both will require legal deeds and whilst we do provide online guidance re transferring ownership and/or easements (rights) and how they are registered they are not going to be enough to get you over the finish line on your own I suspect.
Registering land or property with HM Land Registry: Change the registered owner name - GOV.UK and 
Easements (PG62) - GOV.UK
Google and other search engines can help but in a general way - you are dealing with a very specific scenario with legal and registration needs

Section62

mj1 said:

...
The next door owners want the smallest amount of garden impacted and they would lose more with the above suggestion and would have to look at the side of a garage in their garden. (At moment garages are out of sight lines)

Also there are other structures not shown that would not allow for that idea.
...

Obviously you are reliant on the neighbour being pleased with the outcome, but notwithstanding the other structures, what I was suggesting is that there is probably a layout to be found in which the neighbour has no net loss of garden - i.e. a better outcome in terms of remaining garden than the current idea.  Looking at a garage wall rather than the existing wall/fence is one of those personal taste things, but from a practical point both of you would gain by having garages which could be accessed (and secured) direct from your plots. Also, depending on those existing structures, there may be a small advantage to building the new garages in a different position as it would allow the existing ones to remain in use until the new ones are finished and ready to be used. Ultimately you know the constraints better than me though.

If you stick with your current plan and hope to do it as permitted development by changing the land boundaries then I'd suggest going down the certificate of lawful development route - this would confirm what you want to do is permitted development.  Without that there is an outside chance of the planning authority taking the view that the land ownership change isn't sufficient to put the garage within the curtilage of the dwelling for PD purposes... the definition of 'curtilage' is somewhat flexible with the planning authority getting to decide.

I agree with the others about using a solicitor.  No matter how well you get on with the neighbour, the next occupant may not be so nice and if there is anything wrong in the arrangements you've made than you could find yourself having no access and/or being required to demolish part of your new garage.  It simply isn't worth taking the risk for the modest additional cost involved.

mj1

Just an update for others in a similar situation I have been in touch with Solictors and been quoted around £2300 for this work. 

They have also said that I need a solictor for us and the neighbours. So around £5k to do it with two solictors.

It is a pretty straightforward slight expansion of ownership as the new garage is a bit bigger than old one and eats into the neighbours land.

I have started to examine what the Land registry actually needs and it is a TP1 - Transfer Part form and according to Govt Web site an associated AP1 - Form

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/registered-titles-part-transfer-tp1

I will spend some time this week working my way through the process.

I don't understand why we need two solictors when the end product is an update to the Land Registry which is done by the side that is "selling" the land to a new owner.

Section62

mj1 said:

I don't understand why we need two solictors when the end product is an update to the Land Registry which is done by the side that is "selling" the land to a new owner.

Because of conflict of interest - one solicitor can't act for both of you because something they do (or don't do) could be to the advantage of one client but disadvantage the other client.  E.g. by selling you this land the neighbour might be reducing the value of their property by more than the amount you've agreed to pay them.  Their solicitor should explain this to them, but if the solicitor was also acting for you then it would potentially be to your disadvantage if they told the neighbour to consider asking for more money.

It should also be noted that your situation is a little unusual in that you need extra land because the new garage will be larger than the old one.  If you didn't need some extra land to site the garage then spending £5k to avoid making a planning application wouldn't make sense.

You still need to make sure that what you are doing will be permitted development because increasing the land you own may not (in the council's opinion) mean the new garage site forms part of your property's curtilage.