Nationwide Bank Account Freezing

friolento

smashem196 said:

Another thought has entered my head while this review is going on our frozen acc’s. Could I open another acc for them with a different bank & have their pensions payed into it without it affecting the review. This would mean they aren’t financially compromised while this investigation is going on & would give some relief to my parents…………& me 🙏………or would this look as though I’m up to something 🤷‍♂️

In theory, this is possible - in practice, you may once again fall foul of POA rules. In general, you are not supposed to act on behalf your Mum whilst she still has her faculties.Best if SHE opens the account, and if SHE operates it, even if she needs you to sit with her and guide her.

Make sure you read the T&Cs of the account first, too, so you comply with the bank's POA rules.

35har1old

General_Grant said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If, as it sounds, this money was a joint asset I am afraid none of your father’s share should have been gifted, your mother is free to gift her own assets but not her husband’s.

Ideally as his attorney you should keep his savings in separate accounts.

I believe that banks normally accept that money in a joint account belongs to both and can be spent by either party, not on a 50:50 basis.

Depends how the account was setup re if it requires both signatures for withdrawals 

smasham007

As my mum still has mental capacity, can I deregister the POA on their bank account, thus giving my mum the freedom to do what she wants or can she do what she wants with their money now by accessing her bank account through her own portal access & me still registered as POA & with hindsight if the 25k had been moved through her portal access rather than mine, then we wouldn’t be in this situation.

MattMattMattUK

smashem196 said:

As my mum still has mental capacity, can I deregister the POA on their bank account, thus giving my mum the freedom to do what she wants or can she do what she wants with their money now by accessing her bank account through her own portal access & me still registered as POA & with hindsight if the 25k had been moved through her portal access rather than mine, then we wouldn’t be in this situation.

You would first need to demonstrate your mother has capacity, rather than just de-register the POA, which means going to the Court of Protection as it is already active. 

Your hindsight is wrong, as the POA was active, if she tried to move the £25k the bank would have almost certainly flagged this to you and as POA you would be obligated to decline the transaction. 

You unfortunately need to let this process run it's course, there is no other way around it and you have to accept that you are almost certainly not getting any lump sums whilst your parents are still alive.

Kim_13

MattMattMattUK said:

smashem196 said:

Thanks for all your comments so far people 👍 even though I feel a bit of a numpty now!
My mum has full mental capacity. My dad does not & I run their acc for them both, as mum has no interest in banking. It was her wish to gift & I just followed her instruction.

If the PoA has been activated, granting you control of their banking affairs then the general position is that has happened because they lack capacity.

smashem196 said:

I’ve obviously being very naive about the role of a POA & not felt the need to read up on my obligations. I have gone about this thinking it is ok to send a large amount of money to anyone as long as it has my parents blessing & at least one of them has mental capacity to confirm it. As I am merely carrying out their instruction.

I would really urge you to read up on the PoA, it is something to be taken seriously and you really do need to understand what you are doing.

smashem196 said:

Now if both my parents had no mental capacity then I would understand alarm bells ringing, if I started moving large amounts of their money around to accounts other than theirs. 
If I didn’t have POA & my mum had wrote out a cheque for this amount to be paid direct to me would that have been acceptable or is something going to crop up there. MattMattMattUK  you said about having a solicitor draw up a capacity document. Is that not a POA, which I already have or is it something to prove one or more of my parents have mental capacity & if so how long does one of them last? 

The issue is with the PoA active for both your parents the presumption is that they lack capacity, therefore to be able to gift the money a solicitor would need to confirm, via consultation with a doctor (GP is usually fine) that your mother still has capacity and is legally of sound mind. They would need to confirm that you were not abusing your position. It would normally need to be on a case by case basis for gifting, unless it states something along the lines of "£X every Y period", but the issue with that is deprivation of funds, as others have said. As the assets are joint that also further complicates things. 

Are you using the PoA in relation to any other parts of your parents lives? 

POAs can be set up allowing the attorney(s) to act while the donor still has capacity if they wish, or only once they lose capacity. The former is useful in cases where a person has limited mobility and/or no interest in banking, as say a window cleaner/plumber/gardener/electrician could be paid with a bank transfer initiated by the attorney - saving them the need to keep cash at home or to travel ever further to the bank due to branch closures.

If the POA was of this type, then there is no problem at all with payments being made on the mother’s behalf - but a bank was bound to wonder if it was legitimate given where the money was going to; accompanying someone for them to make a payment to you or your partner would be a red flag for someone being coerced. Fraudsters have taken their victims to branch and instructed them to tell the bank the transaction is genuine. Given your mother has capacity, she should use cheques for any gifts to avoid this kind of situation.

I do wonder if this type of attorney makes the banks nervous when an unusual transaction occurs - they have no way of knowing whether the donor who was previously being assisted with modern banking has now lost capacity.

lr1277

friolento said:

smashem196 said:

Another thought has entered my head while this review is going on our frozen acc’s. Could I open another acc for them with a different bank & have their pensions payed into it without it affecting the review. This would mean they aren’t financially compromised while this investigation is going on & would give some relief to my parents…………& me 🙏………or would this look as though I’m up to something 🤷‍♂️

In theory, this is possible - in practice, you may once again fall foul of POA rules. In general, you are not supposed to act on behalf your Mum whilst she still has her faculties.Best if SHE opens the account, and if SHE operates it, even if she needs you to sit with her and guide her.

Make sure you read the T&Cs of the account first, too, so you comply with the bank's POA rules.

I was under the impression an attorney could act on behalf of the donor before they lost capacity as long as the attorney had the donor's consent to take an action.

I googled: Can POA be used before incapacity.

The summary returned by google said:

A property and financial affairs LPA must be registered before it can be used. However, you don't have to wait until someone loses their mental capacity before using it. A property and financial affairs LPA will come into effect as soon as it is registered.

This linked to a Citizen's advice page:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/looking-after-people/managing-affairs-for-someone-else/

However after skim reading I could not find the text about acting for a donor before the donor lost capacity.

But having been an attorney I 'knew' from back then an attorney could act on behalf of a donor before the donor lost capacity.

Kim_13

lr1277 said:

friolento said:

smashem196 said:

Another thought has entered my head while this review is going on our frozen acc’s. Could I open another acc for them with a different bank & have their pensions payed into it without it affecting the review. This would mean they aren’t financially compromised while this investigation is going on & would give some relief to my parents…………& me 🙏………or would this look as though I’m up to something 🤷‍♂️

In theory, this is possible - in practice, you may once again fall foul of POA rules. In general, you are not supposed to act on behalf your Mum whilst she still has her faculties.Best if SHE opens the account, and if SHE operates it, even if she needs you to sit with her and guide her.

Make sure you read the T&Cs of the account first, too, so you comply with the bank's POA rules.

I was under the impression an attorney could act on behalf of the donor before they lost capacity as long as the attorney had the donor's consent to take an action.

I googled: Can POA be used before incapacity.

The summary returned by google said:

A property and financial affairs LPA must be registered before it can be used. However, you don't have to wait until someone loses their mental capacity before using it. A property and financial affairs LPA will come into effect as soon as it is registered.

This linked to a Citizen's advice page:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/looking-after-people/managing-affairs-for-someone-else/

However after skim reading I could not find the text about acting for a donor before the donor lost capacity.

But having been an attorney I 'knew' from back then an attorney could act on behalf of a donor before the donor lost capacity.

If you download the PDF form, there is a box for the donor to select when they would like their POA to take effect - while they still have capacity or only when they have lost capacity.

OP should check the option selected by their parents (listed on it I imagine, along with whether there are any other attorneys (e,g. whether mum can also act for dad) and if so, whether the attorney is joint or joint and several. If they have selected only when they lose capacity, then they only have the authority to act for their dad at the present time.

lr1277

Kim_13 said:

lr1277 said:

friolento said:

smashem196 said:

Another thought has entered my head while this review is going on our frozen acc’s. Could I open another acc for them with a different bank & have their pensions payed into it without it affecting the review. This would mean they aren’t financially compromised while this investigation is going on & would give some relief to my parents…………& me 🙏………or would this look as though I’m up to something 🤷‍♂️

In theory, this is possible - in practice, you may once again fall foul of POA rules. In general, you are not supposed to act on behalf your Mum whilst she still has her faculties.Best if SHE opens the account, and if SHE operates it, even if she needs you to sit with her and guide her.

Make sure you read the T&Cs of the account first, too, so you comply with the bank's POA rules.

I was under the impression an attorney could act on behalf of the donor before they lost capacity as long as the attorney had the donor's consent to take an action.

I googled: Can POA be used before incapacity.

The summary returned by google said:

A property and financial affairs LPA must be registered before it can be used. However, you don't have to wait until someone loses their mental capacity before using it. A property and financial affairs LPA will come into effect as soon as it is registered.

This linked to a Citizen's advice page:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/looking-after-people/managing-affairs-for-someone-else/

However after skim reading I could not find the text about acting for a donor before the donor lost capacity.

But having been an attorney I 'knew' from back then an attorney could act on behalf of a donor before the donor lost capacity.

If you download the PDF form, there is a box for the donor to select when they would like their POA to take effect - while they still have capacity or only when they have lost capacity.

OP should check the option selected by their parents (listed on it I imagine, along with whether there are any other attorneys (e,g. whether mum can also act for dad) and if so, whether the attorney is joint or joint and several. If they have selected only when they lose capacity, then they only have the authority to act for their dad at the present time.

Thanks I did not know that. My parents got a solicitor to make the application.

smasham007

I understand the banks dilemma, but to lock our acc’s down for weeks on end with no indication as to when we can get access to them is very heavy handed. The banks SST have spoken to my mum 4 times with regard to this transaction I made & she has told them she knows about it & is happy with it. 

Some of the comments on this thread suggest that it’s an absolute no no to gift large amounts of money if you have a EPOA registered on you parents acc, even if one of them has full mental capacity to gift. Ironically I was gifted this money before I registered the EPOA on my parents acc, but it was in a bond, so I had to wait until it matured. I found the below paragraph on the web, but not sure how accurate AI replies are. It definitely doesn’t say be very careful how you go about this as the bank may just decide to lock all your acc’s down. Would my going to a solicitor now with my mum to confirm she has full mental capacity, make the bank accept there is no skulduggery going on & unlock our acc’s immediately? I have a feeling it’s too late for that!

If your mother has mental capacity and wants to give you £25k, and you have an Enduring Power of Attorney (EPOA) with no restrictions, then you can legally accept the gift as long as she is making the decision freely and understands the implications of giving you that amount of money; however, it's always best to consult a solicitor to confirm this is the case and to ensure the transfer is done correctly.

MattMattMattUK

smashem196 said:

I understand the banks dilemma, but to lock our acc’s down for weeks on end with no indication as to when we can get access to them is very heavy handed. The banks SST have spoken to my mum 4 times with regard to this transaction I made & she has told them she knows about it & is happy with it. 

The banks have to follow a process once there are indications of potential fraud, they are not allowed to give you information on that process beyond very limited information, that is prescribed in regulation and there are heavy fines for any banks who "tip off" those under investigation, even more so if they turn out to actually be fraudsters. Speaking to your mother does not in any way confirm that she has capacity, I suspect she may well be asked to provide a statement from her GP at some point.

smashem196 said:

Some of the comments on this thread suggest that it’s an absolute no no to gift large amounts of money if you have a EPOA registered on you parents acc, even if one of them has full mental capacity to gift. Ironically I was gifted this money before I registered the EPOA on my parents acc, but it was in a bond, so I had to wait until it matured.

You were not legally gifted it if it was in their name, so that will not mean anything as far as the bank is concerned. 

smashem196 said:

I found the below paragraph on the web, but not sure how accurate AI replies are. It definitely doesn’t say be very careful how you go about this as the bank may just decide to lock all your acc’s down. 

Ignore the AI.

smashem196 said:

Would my going to a solicitor now with my mum to confirm she has full mental capacity, make the bank accept there is no skulduggery going on & unlock our acc’s immediately? I have a feeling it’s too late for that!

It absolutely would not unlock the accounts immediately, the bank will still have to follow their process and the bigger issue is that you in the PoA role attempted to circumvent the rules which categorically state that you cannot transfer the funds to yourself, so instead you deliberately used a proxy (your partner) to move the money. Now I totally accept you were not doing anything dishonest in the ultimate goal, your mother wished you to have the money and she has the capacity to make that decision, but the issue is you broke the rules, that may well mean that even if you prove your mother has capacity to make the gift you are not deemed a responsible person to have PoA over your parents affairs. 

You need to let the bank's process run it's course, you might want to take the free advice that solicitors sometimes offer, I would recommend that you speak to Citizen's Advice as they may be able to offer guidance, but in the interim as uncomfortable as it is, you need to just let things work their way through the various processes.