Nationwide Bank Account Freezing

smasham007

Hi all, I recently was gifted some money from my parents, which has been in a bond for 4yrs. The bond matured & was sent to my parents nominated acc. I have POA on their acc & moved 25k of it to my partners acc, as POA’s are not allowed to move large amounts of money directly into their own acc’s. I wanted to move all of the gifted money the same day, so I rang the bank & asked them how I can do this. The agent said you will have to go into your local branch to do it. I went to the branch & was told this wasn’t possible, so I resigned myself to moving the money the following day online. 

Later that day found out all our acc’s had been frozen & no amount of ringing the bank would change the situation. The specialist support team are now investigating our acc’s & have rung my mum 4 times asking her does she know about the 25k being transferred & what relation is my partner to her. My mum has told them all is ok with what I am doing, but Nationwide will not unfreeze our acc’s until they finish their review, which they say will take as long as it takes. NW say they don’t freeze acc’s unless there is good reason to do this. I disagree with them & think what they have is very heavy handed & wrong, as I was up front with them about the whole process & don’t see how else I could have moved this gift. Has anyone else experienced this kind of situation & if so how did they handle it. My 90yr old parents have had no access to their acc’s for 3 weeks now, which I think is absolutely outrageous. There is no dodgy goings on with their acc, so I really don’t see why there was a need to do this. Hopefully someone one on here can offer some good advice to help me get this situation resolved asap. Thankyou.

cannugec5

I don’t think you can speed up the process. You have been open about your intentions to circumvent the POA rules designed to prevent you from moving the money into your own account. As POA you are not allowed to do this and you acknowledge that you know this. 

They now have to be sure that you are not forcing your parents to make this decision. I think you can expect the process to take a number of weeks. This is happening to protect your parents from your actions. 

I would applaud Nationwide for their prompt intervention. 

MattMattMattUK

smashem196 said:

Hi all, I recently was gifted some money from my parents, which has been in a bond for 4yrs. The bond matured & was sent to my parents nominated acc. I have POA on their acc & moved 25k of it to my partners acc, as POA’s are not allowed to move large amounts of money directly into their own acc’s. I wanted to move all of the gifted money the same day, so I rang the bank & asked them how I can do this. The agent said you will have to go into your local branch to do it. I went to the branch & was told this wasn’t possible, so I resigned myself to moving the money the following day online. 

Later that day found out all our acc’s had been frozen & no amount of ringing the bank would change the situation. The specialist support team are now investigating our acc’s & have rung my mum 4 times asking her does she know about the 25k being transferred & what relation is my partner to her. My mum has told them all is ok with what I am doing, but Nationwide will not unfreeze our acc’s until they finish their review, which they say will take as long as it takes. NW say they don’t freeze acc’s unless there is good reason to do this. I disagree with them & think what they have is very heavy handed & wrong, as I was up front with them about the whole process & don’t see how else I could have moved this gift. Has anyone else experienced this kind of situation & if so how did they handle it. My 90yr old parents have had no access to their acc’s for 3 weeks now, which I think is absolutely outrageous. There is no dodgy goings on with their acc, so I really don’t see why there was a need to do this. Hopefully someone one on here can offer some good advice to help me get this situation resolved asap. Thankyou.

You have attempted to do something which is not allowed under the rules for POA, you have breached the trust and agreement that underlays that process, the bank has to take measures to protect itself and it's customer (your parents). You might well find that your POA is suspended and that this ends up being referred to the Court of Protection. 

My advice would be fully cooperate with the process, stop demanding the bank unfreeze the accounts and start preparing for the POA to be revoked by the Court of Protection. 

cannugec5 said:

I don’t think you can speed up the process. You have been open about your intentions to circumvent the POA rules designed to prevent you from moving the money into your own account. As POA you are not allowed to do this and you acknowledge that you know this. 

They now have to be sure that you are not forcing your parents to make this decision. I think you can expect the process to take a number of weeks. This is happening to protect your parents from your actions. 

I would applaud Nationwide for their prompt intervention. 

I completely agree. 

smasham007

Thanks for your reply Cannugec5
But this is causing hardship & inconvenience for the very people NW are trying to protect. I don’t understand why it has to take so long, if the only issue is did they gift me the money of their own free will. How could this have been done differently, so not to have caused the freezing of their & my acc’s ie should I have taken my parents into the branch, so that they could have told the bank of their intentions. They are very upset with what has happened & will be very reluctant to gift any more money in the future, if they think this could happen again & I don’t blame them. I didn’t ask the banks advice on how best to do this, because I didn’t think there was a need having POA. I took my mum into the branch the following day, but they didn’t want to know, which was very frustrating. My parents can’t even pay for their online shopping now. It’s all very upsetting for them & me, as I feel it’s my fault!

Keep_pedalling

From NWs point of view what you have done is highly suspicious, and could be considered abuse of your authority as their attorney and they have a duty to protect vunerable customers. You might find that they may refer this to the office of the public guardian. Why was the £25k moved to your partners account rather than your own?

The other potential issue here could deliberate deprivation of assets if this gift leaves them short of liquid assets should they need care in the future.

smasham007

So as a POA can I not be gifted money by my parents? I am actually feeling having POA registered on their acc atm is a hinderance to what they want to do. The money gifted to me will not leave my parents short in any way, they just wanted to gift it while they are alive & also to try & minimise any possible inheritance tax being payable on their estate in the future, as thresholds have been frozen for several years. The money was paid into my partners acc, because she won’t pay income tax on the interest & as I said earlier I am not allowed to pay it direct to me, so where do I pay it? As I also said in my original post there is absolutely nothing dodgy going on & I can’t be the only POA that has been gifted money. It just seems that I have gone the wrong way about moving it, but as I asked earlier how should I have done it to keep the bank happy?

MattMattMattUK

smashem196 said:

Thanks for your reply Cannugec5
But this is causing hardship & inconvenience for the very people NW are trying to protect. I don’t understand why it has to take so long, if the only issue is did they gift me the money of their own free will.

There are two issues, the first is did they gift the money of their own free will, Nationwide are not in a position to make that decision so it will likely have to be referred to the Court of Protection, the second is that you have attempted to circumvent the rules under which POAs operate, likely an issue for the CoP to resolve, but Nationwide may now not deem to fit for their internal processes as you have acted in this way.

smashem196 said:

How could this have been done differently, so not to have caused the freezing of their & my acc’s ie should I have taken my parents into the branch, so that they could have told the bank of their intentions.

You say "their intentions", do you have PoA because your parents lack mental capacity or physical capacity? If it is the former then you are unable to gift the money regardless of what your parents request, if it is the latter then you would normally get it signed off by a solicitor or the CoP.

smashem196 said:

They are very upset with what has happened & will be very reluctant to gift any more money in the future,

As Keep mentions, potentially that is the right decision, especially relating to deprivation of assets. 

smashem196 said:

if they think this could happen again & I don’t blame them.

It could happen again and almost certainly will if you did the same thing again, regardless of the bank or building society the account was held with.

smashem196 said:

I didn’t ask the banks advice on how best to do this, because I didn’t think there was a need having POA.

You said you knew you were trying to circumvent the rules relating to having a PoA, you should have been fully aware of your obligations when you agreed to be a PoA, there are very specific rules around gifting and even stricter rules when the recipient is connected to the person with PoA, you effectively tried to use your partners bank account to bypass the PoA rules.

smashem196 said:

I took my mum into the branch the following day, but they didn’t want to know, which was very frustrating. 

It is an internal fraud investigation, there is a potential breach of the PoA, it may be referred to the police and the Court of Protection may need to be involved, the branch staff are not allowed to get involved, neither will they be privy to the details or almost all of what is going on in the fraud department.

smashem196 said:

My parents can’t even pay for their online shopping now. 

This is the element that needs to be managed in the short term, find a way to help them financially.

smashem196 said:

It’s all very upsetting for them & me, as I feel it’s my fault!

Unfortunately it is your fault, you attempted to bypass the rules for a PoA. Nationwide, as required by both legislation and regulation stepped in to stop that transaction taking place and have acted in accordance with those rules to freeze the account, they and potentially the Police and Court of Protection will take as long as they take. 

MattMattMattUK

smashem196 said:

So as a POA can I not be gifted money by my parents?

Realistically no. If the PoA is active because they lack capacity then they are not capable of making an informed and rational decision to gift the money. It also cannot be gifted by the PoA to anyone else either, as it is not the PoA's money to gift.

smashem196 said:

I am actually feeling having POA registered on their acc atm is a hinderance to what they want to do. The money gifted to me will not leave my parents short in any way, they just wanted to gift it while they are alive & also to try & minimise any possible inheritance tax being payable on their estate in the future, as thresholds have been frozen for several years. 

That all needed to have been done before the PoA was active and probably with the help of a solicitor if a PoA was likely to be activated soon after.

smashem196 said:

The money was paid into my partners acc, because she won’t pay income tax on the interest & as I said earlier I am not allowed to pay it direct to me, so where do I pay it? 

The issue is you know the rules and attempted to bypass them. You do not pay it anywhere, at least not without speaking to a solicitor to have capacity documentation drawn up first first.

smashem196 said:

As I also said in my original post there is absolutely nothing dodgy going on & I can’t be the only POA that has been gifted money. It just seems that I have gone the wrong way about moving it, but as I asked earlier how should I have done it to keep the bank happy?

You should have followed the rules for PoAs first and foremost. 

Do you handle any other parts of their affairs? If so you urgently need to read up on your obligations. 

cannugec5

They are very upset with what has happened & will be very reluctant to gift any more money in the future, if they think this could happen again & I don’t blame them. 

I think you need to have a good look at the rules governing POA that you signed up to when you accepted the role. 

There are strict conditions on gifts. They have to, IIRC, be in keeping with gifting prior to the POA. So, if your parents were in the habit of  a substantial financial gift on your birthday ( for example) that could continue. Likewise to other friends and family. Continuing the established pattern of gifts is permitted. Suddenly gifting 25K is not! 

So, in the future. No.

Hoenir

smashem196 said:

 I have POA on their acc & moved 25k of it to my partners acc, as POA’s are not allowed to move large amounts of money directly into their own acc’s.

You knew you were breaking the POA rules and were attempting to circumnvigate them. Now you are expressing indignantion. Doesn't wash as the current situation is as the result of your own actions. Totally self inflicted I'm sorry to say. 

smasham007

Thanks for all your comments so far people 👍 even though I feel a bit of a numpty now!
My mum has full mental capacity. My dad does not & I run their acc for them both, as mum has no interest in banking. It was her wish to gift & I just followed her instruction. I’ve obviously being very naive about the role of a POA & not felt the need to read up on my obligations. I have gone about this thinking it is ok to send a large amount of money to anyone as long as it has my parents blessing & at least one of them has mental capacity to confirm it. As I am merely carrying out their instruction. Now if both my parents had no mental capacity then I would understand alarm bells ringing, if I started moving large amounts of their money around to accounts other than theirs. 
If I didn’t have POA & my mum had wrote out a cheque for this amount to be paid direct to me would that have been acceptable or is something going to crop up there. MattMattMattUK  you said about having a solicitor draw up a capacity document. Is that not a POA, which I already have or is it something to prove one or more of my parents have mental capacity & if so how long does one of them last?