What's the diffidence between collecting gold and investment gold and the impact on benefits?

TimeLord1

I have seen something similar on another forum about a coin note collection and I believe they took the current valuation worth and it was added to capital. But if it was paid into the bank it held face value. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Your deputy needs to know about the coins, if they don't already, then it's up to them to find out whether it needs to be declared because they're the one responsible for your claim.

HillStreetBlues

Northern_Wanderer said:

I found this: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/are_bullion_coins_regarded_as_sa

it links to this document https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/are_bullion_coins_regarded_as_sa/response/900007/attach/3/WDTK%204240.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

So I think you have your answer. It should be declared as "other savings" and a decision maker will decide.....

The DWP is unlikely to give the answer collection gold coins is fine. As they not suppose to lie then they can fudge it my answering "maybe".

HillStreetBlues

kaMelo said:

williewonder said:

I collect gold coins... one ounce krugerrands. Would more than 6k affect my benefits? They are collecting not investments?

Possibly. You say they are not investments but what other reason is there to hold them if not investment? 
Leaving that aside, for benefit purposes personal possessions are not classed as capital. Are the Krugerrands capital or a personal possession?
That's a debate that could go on forever but ultimately it would be for DWP  to convince a tribunal that they were not a personal possession, something I think they would struggle with.

From what I remember reading (so wouldn't bet my house on it) that it's a personal possession as it doesn't fall into any other category, so has to be a personal possession.
It could be depreciation of capital if buying them when having over £6k of capital.

Grumpy_chap

HillStreetBlues said:

kaMelo said:

williewonder said:

I collect gold coins... one ounce krugerrands. Would more than 6k affect my benefits? They are collecting not investments?

Possibly. You say they are not investments but what other reason is there to hold them if not investment? 
Leaving that aside, for benefit purposes personal possessions are not classed as capital. Are the Krugerrands capital or a personal possession?
That's a debate that could go on forever but ultimately it would be for DWP  to convince a tribunal that they were not a personal possession, something I think they would struggle with.

From what I remember reading (so wouldn't bet my house on it) that it's a personal possession as it doesn't fall into any other category, so has to be a personal possession.
It could be depreciation of capital if buying them when having over £6k of capital.

The answer given in the linked article was that the bullion coins should be declared under "other savings":
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/are_bullion_coins_regarded_as_sa/response/900007/attach/3/WDTK 4240.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Krugerrands have a face value as legal tender (in SA) of 1 Rand, about 5 pence.  I suspect declaring the face value as cash and the low nominal value would not satisfy a DM if the DM knew the true nature (and value) of the coins.

Would any one consider it reasonable if an individual declared a collection of coins for their home insurance as having a value of £2.2k per coin but declared the same collection of coins as having a value of 5 pence per coin for their UC claim?  
That type of inconsistency simply does not look to be honest.  If it does not look honest, that creates a risk of it being determined as fraudulent.

The OP seems to suggest they have a "collection" of these coins - that may well put them above the £6k threshold (3 coins) or even above the £16k threshold (8 coins).  Can the OP confirm how many of these coins they have?


Contrary to what I have suggested above, the Shelter website specifically states that gold does not count as savings:
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/benefits/universal_credit_savings_limits


Given the lack of certainty, the OP would need to declare the items and state their assessment of which category they fall under for a DM to then make a decision.

TimeLord1

I think people seem to pigeon hole items like this as rings, chains, bracelets etc. which if you was in debt would be sold but personal possessions until it's sold. But coins and bars is classed as share investment.

Northern_Wanderer

HillStreetBlues said:

Northern_Wanderer said:

I found this: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/are_bullion_coins_regarded_as_sa

it links to this document https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/are_bullion_coins_regarded_as_sa/response/900007/attach/3/WDTK%204240.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

So I think you have your answer. It should be declared as "other savings" and a decision maker will decide.....

The DWP is unlikely to give the answer collection gold coins is fine. As they not suppose to lie then they can fudge it my answering "maybe".

The article does not say that gold coins are fine, it says they should be declared. But perhaps you just mean that a decision maker is unlikely to say gold coins are fine...

Northern_Wanderer

What benefits are you on OP? Means tested benefits would be affected, like UC/ income related ESA but disability benefits like PIP/ ADP/ AA would not.

HillStreetBlues

TimeLord1 said:

I think people seem to pigeon hole items like this as rings, chains, bracelets etc. which if you was in debt would be sold but personal possessions until it's sold. But coins and bars is classed as share investment.

When the laws were written there was no distinction between rings, chains coins or even bars, they are all personal possession.  Gold isn't legally a "share" so can't be classed as such.
Is it a way of circumventing the capital rules, it would seem so but unless they update the rules or there is Case Law to state they are capital,  possessions they remain.

HillStreetBlues

Case Law  seems to be R(H)7/08
The test boils down to [A] does a person own it, [B] is the item physical, [C] is is not land or a business asset.
A gold coin is owned, it is a  physical item  and not land or a business asset, which means it's has to be treated as a personal possession.