Grave Kerb / Memorial Vase Inscription - Unknown Plot Ownership

staffsuk

One of my closest friends died last year, and was subsequently cremated. I have his ashes with me. He had no offspring, and was the last in his family line. There are no surviving relatives to my knowledge. 

He took me to his family grave a couple of times, where his mother, father & brother are buried. It’s a flat style grave, with four kerb stones, three of which have inscriptions. There is also a memorial vase on the grave which has no inscription. 

He suggested various places where he wanted his ashes scattered, he was very unperturbed about any such matters. But it did change from year to year! One reluctant option (without going into details) was his family grave, which is something I’m now considering for some of his ashes. I don’t know who has ownership of the plot, and I haven’t found anything amongst his documents. It's possible any plot ownership might have lapsed, I just don't know. I mentioned this to the funeral directors, who openly suggested I just scatter his ashes on the grave one evening, without informing anyone. But, I would like if possible to arrange for an inscription on the remaining kerb stone. Can anyone guide me with regards options I have to achieve this? Failing that, I'm wondering if I could just 'acquire' the memorial vase for a short time, to have an inscription added. We are friends with a stonemason who could do this. Just to add - probate was granted for his estate, and I’m the sole executor.

Thanks

Emmia

Have you contacted the "operators" i.e. the church etc. of the graveyard / cemetery? They should be the first port of call for this.

They'll be able to guide you on costs, inscriptions and other requirements - I'm not sure you'll get much other advice on here.
 

JGB1955

When my father died I had his name inscribed on a memorial stone (along with that of my late mother) and the stonemasons arranged for the relevant permissions from the diocese and placed the stone where I had asked, on a 'family grave'.  This was all done 'remotely - the church is well over 2 hours away from home.  There was a small fee to pay directly to the church - something in the region of £20.

A few months after the stone was placed we did as your funeral director suggested - the church is SO remote there was zero chance of us being 'spotted'.  Tidied up the grave, scattered two lots of ashes - broke open a bottle of bubbly and left feeling that our parents would have approved, even if it was outside the 'rules'.

maman

We had a similar situation with DH's late uncle. His family plot was in a closed churchyard so, going through the secretary at the church office, DH applied for a sort of equivalent of planning permission to be able to interr the ashes in the grave and have uncle's name added to the headstone.

We knew these were his wishes as DH had previously helped his uncle to have the headstone erected on the grave for his parents (DH's grandparents) . 

DH's first cousin subsequently did as your funeral directors suggested and scattered his mother's (sister of above uncle) ashes on the grave at a quiet time.

I know municipal cemeteries keep records so may also be able to help. 

RAS

Definitely check with the church, or graveyard owner. Easy enough if it still hosts funerals.

If you don't know, try the local history library or local history/family history society. One of them will know who is still in charge, not least as all graveyards have to be checked for dangerous memorials.

It is quite possible that a member of the family is listed as original owner and your friend could have inherited the ownership with a little paperwork. That's happened with one family grave. In a couple of other cases, we've done a little light ash scattering on an informal case. Just make sure the winds not blowing. 

maman

Sorry to lighten the thread but when we scattered my mother's ashes my brother, who is a keen golfer, had enough sense to check the wind direction first. 😁

staffsuk

Thanks for the replies 🙂

I have been somewhat reluctant to engage the cemetery owner (local council), given some of the horror stories I've read of extortionate fees they have levied. Hence why, I guess, the funeral director suggested I just informally scatter the ashes on the grave. I'm wondering if I can get the kerb stone, or the memorial vase in my rucksack?! The kerb is one of the end stones, and not that large... 🤫

It's likely his father was the original plot owner with the grave deed and EROB, and he was the last to be buried there. But given their estranged relationship, I very much doubt transfer of ownership will have been made to his son / my late friend. If it had, I'm sure he would have known about it, and informed me of such. If ownership had been transferred to him, I understand given there was a grant of probate, I could as executor have applied for transfer of ownership into my name.

Having said all of that, I have just read on the council's site that a memorial vase is allowed to be placed on an unowned grave, but not a full sized headstone without transfer of ownership. There's no mention of any fees on the page for the placing of a vase (there is one there anyway without an inscription), nor in the list of cemetery fees. Would they charge me I wonder to remove the vase, have an inscription placed on the vase, and return it to the grave, and what about adding an inscription onto an existing kerb?

Thanks @maman, if a clandestine scattering is in order, I'll be checking the windspeed beforehand! 😬

Emmia

staffsuk said:

Thanks for the replies 🙂

I have been somewhat reluctant to engage the cemetery owner (local council), given some of the horror stories I've read of extortionate fees they have levied. Hence why, I guess, the funeral director suggested I just informally scatter the ashes on the grave. I'm wondering if I can get the kerb stone, or the memorial vase in my rucksack?! The kerb is one of the end stones, and not that large... 🤫

It's likely his father was the original plot owner with the grave deed and EROB, and he was the last to be buried there. But given their estranged relationship, I very much doubt transfer of ownership will have been made to his son / my late friend. If it had, I'm sure he would have known about it, and informed me of such. If ownership had been transferred to him, I understand given there was a grant of probate, I could as executor have applied for transfer of ownership into my name.

Having said all of that, I have just read on the council's site that a memorial vase is allowed to be placed on an unowned grave, but not a full sized headstone without transfer of ownership. There's no mention of any fees on the page for the placing of a vase (there is one there anyway without an inscription), nor in the list of cemetery fees. Would they charge me I wonder to remove the vase, have an inscription placed on the vase, and return it to the grave, and what about adding an inscription onto an existing kerb?

Thanks @maman, if a clandestine scattering is in order, I'll be checking the windspeed beforehand! 😬

Putting the vase or kerb in your backpack, and not seeking formal permission leaves you open to the possibility of being accused of theft. I expect they'll have CCTV on the graveyard to deter other activities.

RAS

It would have been for your friend to contact the council, check the ownership of the grave and then provide evidence of his relationship before being granted ownership himself. 

In our family situation the person getting ownership was the child of someone who wasn't born when the grave was bought..

Savvy_Sue

They can't charge you for asking the questions, and we found the council very helpful (we weren't even sure where the grave was ...)

staffsuk

So, having spoken to the cemetery owner, they don't allow scattering of ashes on a grave, only a burial, and they want £500 for that privilege. No wonder the funeral directors told me to 'scatter' the ashes one evening...