Anyone compared British Gas vs Octopus heat pumps?

barker77

Im keen to get a heat pump and have had a decent quote from octopus £2800 for 8 radiators and full install. I have also seen that British Gas promise to price match so wondered if they were better or if anyone has looked into this already and worked out who is better? Im keen to get a decent COP and was worried about either wanting to do high flow rates etc / would prefer a Vaillant vs a Daikin if i can get one!

matt_drummer

barker77 said:

Im keen to get a heat pump and have had a decent quote from octopus £2800 for 8 radiators and full install. I have also seen that British Gas promise to price match so wondered if they were better or if anyone has looked into this already and worked out who is better? Im keen to get a decent COP and was worried about either wanting to do high flow rates etc / would prefer a Vaillant vs a Daikin if i can get one!

Well, that rules Octopus out then!

HeatpumpMonitor.org

barker77

I would hope that they can give an estimate of the COP etc on survey so i woud be able to make a decision there vs using some of that data which i assume isnt all of their installs

matt_drummer

If you want a Vaillant, Octopus won't supply one, although they may in the future I have heard, but then again they may not.

Daikins are consistent poor performers compared to other brands.

Octopus design to run at 50c at around -3c outside.

You will never get to 50c at that outside temperature with a Daikin, and you probably won't need to go that high.

But, if Octopus have specified your radiator sizes, then I can pretty much guarantee that they won't be anywhere near big enough to get anything more than a mid range COP/SCOP

Most Daikin owners use espaltherma to extract data from their heat pumps, generally because they don't want to pay for a heat meter, goes with getting Octopus to do the installation, cheap and they don't want to spend.

You need to tick some boxes on the left to include heat pumps that aren't MID monitored, then you will see all the Octopus Daikin installations, they are not at the top!

I don't know anybody that would actually choose a Daikin.

I have one, I have actually had two, but only because I was forced to use Octopus.

I would, and might, get rid of my Daikin at the earliest opportunity.

matt_drummer

barker77 said:

I would hope that they can give an estimate of the COP etc on survey so i woud be able to make a decision there vs using some of that data which i assume isnt all of their installs

That data is by no means all of their installations, far from it.

But it is data from owners that are trying to get the best from their heat pumps.

The data is indicative of the best possible outcome.

Owners with no interest in getting the best from their heat pump will really struggle with a Daikin, they have so many parameters that you can adjust.

stripling

barker77 said:

Im keen to get a heat pump and have had a decent quote from octopus £2800 for 8 radiators and full install. I have also seen that British Gas promise to price match so wondered if they were better or if anyone has looked into this already and worked out who is better? Im keen to get a decent COP and was worried about either wanting to do high flow rates etc / would prefer a Vaillant vs a Daikin if i can get one!

I had heat loss surveys and quotes from both. I researched it deeply, discussed it in geeky heat pump forums, picked everyone's brains (thank you all) and finally went for Octopus. So far.... I don't regret it. 

Both BG & Octopus quote for Daikins. BG will also offer a Vaillant for a lot more money than the Daikin if you prefer. Octopus designs @ 50º BG designs @ 45º yet interestingly they both came up with mostly the same rad changes/sizes/heat loss. I also had an independent HG elite survey. I couldn't afford his quote which was for a Midea although I was seriously impressed with his survey and knowledge and he didn't charge me for the survey. I couldn't afford a Vaillant so it would've been Daikin wherever I went. 

After a borescope inspection of my walls and discovery of gaps in the insulation, I also did my own heat loss survey on Heat Punk. The missing insulation threw a bit of a curved ball.  MCS guidelines are bit stupid in places.... 

The BG heat loss surveyor was an ex-gas fitter turned salesman. The 🐙 surveyor was an experienced heat loss assessor. They are all limited by their software which is not exactly flexible... Both took their time and did their best to answer questions. 

My 🐙 quote was not cheap like others - this seems to be a result of their 'random quote generator' as someone else described it. Job-wise mine was a super easy set up - tank and ASHP back-to-back, all pipework visible at head height in the cellar etc., No one could explain my quote size. The installers told me they had seen far more complex jobs with bigger heat pumps, a lot cheaper. 

I used the borescope images and the high(er) cost to negotiate changing all the radiators.... every single one. I sized them (in my head thanks to the Heat Geek rough guide & support from an interactive Excel spread sheet that lets you play with delta Ts, radiator sizes and so on ) to allow for a design temp of 40º .

In reality my 3.5 months old 6KW Daikin purrs along on pure weather compensation (Leaving Water Temp control Daikin call it) @ a design temp of 38º . It has now gone through 2 big freezes and back up to 'shoulder season temps of 10-12º without blinking, without turning off, while keeping my house at 22º . Defrosts have been minimal with at least 2 hour gaps when it was sub zero. Energy consumption has been very smooth, not too high and without peaks or troughs. This only really bedded in after I stopped using any kind of thermostat including the Madoka. 

Why did I choose 🐙?  
I had a tech inspection after the heat loss survey and the installer bounced through the door saying 'ask me anything while I'm here'. He was so well-informed about heat pumps, very enthusiastic, didn't give me 'the company line' and suggested I push back on the design temp.

They wouldn't budge on the 50º design temp but were otherwise really accommodating, gave me room for manoeuvre with my own running temps (the bigger rads), offered the best/cheapest service plan and instilled a level of trust that was echoed by the fitting team. The sales person was classic 'sales person' but when I was handed over to the installation co-ordinator she was really, really good. 

They listened when I argued against MCS guidelines for halls - mine is a room too - and didn't blink when I swapped out a radiator next to the front door (during the installation) for a more powerful one the same size that was supposed to go elsewhere. (which then had to be replaced) (I'm glad I did, the installers agreed with my logic - it works) 

BG just couldn't come up with this level of trust-building and accommodation (you pay per rad with BG and at much higher prices than 🐙). They were only interested in sales.  But there's a good video series on YouTube of a BG heat pump fitting and reviews afterwards so do have a look.   

🐙 changed one of the new rads for a bigger size without quibbling, after I paid the bill.  

Things I would change? I should've lobbied for (or even done myself) an insulated base for my water tank in the cellar - my bad - I hadn't thought much about the tank and I should've asked for a bigger one - mine is 180litre and we eat it when my family is here. Daikin as a company are often pants, their manuals are rubbish but there's a huge amount of information and support online.  The 🐙 Unofficial Daikin Facebook group is fab, international (not all 🐙 customers but Daikin owners) and some members made a crowd sourced manual for beginners so maybe join and check it out.  

Without naming names, someone who has been designing and fitting ASHPs for a very long time, is very high up in the industry, said to me that technically speaking, he thinks Daikins are better than Vaillant. I have absolutely no way of confirming that obviously.  Either way, they're both good solid, long existing companies. 

Watch this space I'm deffo not an 🐙 fanboi/girl [😁] but so far, I'm happy with my heat pump. Fingers crossed it stays that way.  My only worry with ALL of them is how long they'll keep the software supported.. 

barker77

@stripling thanks so much! Your design temp of 38c - just checking you worked that out yourself and specd radiators above what octopus said is that right? Octopus then agreed with the ask? Just checking so i know what to ask for when they come to quote  

stripling

@barker77  No, not at all, it wasn't that well thought out. It evolved that way because after the heat loss survey I had coincidently had a wall survey with borescope for completely different reasons. I'd already used a thermal camera and discovered very dark (cold) patches in my walls and the borescope drilling showed huge gaps in the insulation. The timing was coincidental.

But then this made my heat loss assessment complicated. I made a case for some of the radiators because of it (I had both the borescope and thermal images to back my case). My house is a bit of an anomaly - it is quite exposed because it is built into a hill and heat loss surveys can't account for that.  So along with the images of the problem walls (which are north facing too) that was how I justified the main changes.  Plus the existing radiators were absolutely ancient it would not have been wise to keep them with a new system. 

The others were for different reasons and I paid for my own bathroom radiator and its fitting because I didn't want a 'normal' radiator I wanted a designer radiator - I bought a Nordic Aluminium radiator which is incredibly powerful at low flow temps for a relatively small size (and looks super cool 😁). 🐙 won't fit radiators that aren't theirs because they would become liable for it. 

I played with Heat Punk and tried to check the rads because I didn't want them to be all over the place size wise. I lobbied for the hall - it's a square central space with a front door but all the house rooms come off it and it is used for playing, for yoga, for all sorts, like a room not a passage. MCS guidelines are based on stupid stereotypes of how people live - not reality.  

But I checked each rad to see what was possible and the 'oversizing' of some of them made a 40º design temp possible.  When I asked for changes I asked for specific sizes - K2 or whatever so it could cope with my imaginary 40º. But this had nothing to do with the surveyor.  He/she can't change things - they are bound by the software.  You can ask for a bedroom to be designed for an office (bedrooms are 18º offices 21º according to MCS guidelines) but the surveyor can't change too much. 

Most people's radiators are a bit oversized in the survey anyway and plenty of people in the Fbook group are happily running systems at lower flow temps than the design temperature. But... if all else fails 🐙 will often let you pay for more radiator changes and their charges are minimal relative to paying someone else. (And deffo cheaper than BG) There's no VAT if they do it. 

Wait for your heat loss survey and see what it says. That always has to be your starting point. But be aware they 'slot' radiators in where the old ones were - they won't generally change locations or widths and they will commission the system for 50º no matter what.  My point was to say their systems are more flexible than they sound.