CCJ from UK Parking Control - for a fine that was already paid months ago

michaelleiper

Background...
I moved to Hong Kong last year, but my daughters are still in the UK, and one of them is driving my car (she's a named driver on the insurance, etc.)
Apparently she stayed 10 minutes too long at a car park in Reading back in June, and as I'm still the registered keeper of the car, UK Parking Control sent letters addressed to me that they just added to the pile of mail that I will read at some point when I'm next in the UK...
Eventually UK Parking Control sent a letter that needed to be signed for, so that one got opened, she found out about the parking charge (all done with cameras from entry and exit times presumably because there was never anything left on the windscreen).
So she paid it - £170 in October. (No discount as too late....)

So far - pretty normal outrageous fines as we've come to expect from private parking companies..

Here's the kicker. on 30 December, a CCJ is issued against me as a default judgment (I'm still in Hong Kong, so never saw any letters from the court or anything.) But again, this is a letter that needed to be signed for, so got opened, so at least I'm aware of it.

The CCJ is for the non-payment of the £170 (that was paid in October - we have the receipt), and an extra £113.12 in interest and costs.
I've talked to the court and my options are...

1. Talk to the solicitors (DCB Legal) and get them to cancel it.
We've attempted this - at the moment they're still "checking" our receipt from paying the fine. But they've been checking for over a week now and I'm running out of time to pay the CCJ before it's on my credit record for 6 years.

2. Pay the court.
Even though it's complete !!!!!!, because the fine was already paid in October. The court has said I owe the money, so as the far as the court is concerned I owe the money.

3. Ask to have it set aside.
The problem here is that the court has a fee of £303 to ask to set it aside, and you need to turn up in person (which is a bit of a problem since I am currently living in Hong Kong).

How has the court system in the UK got to the point that parking companies can get a court to enforce a fine that's already paid? And somehow it's me, not them, that's got a problem if I don't pay it.

This surely must be illegal?

michaelleiper

P.S. My brother is telling me to pay the £303 to the court and fly back to be present at the court rather than give them the money. (I'm paraphrasing).

Then presumably it would be a matter of counterclaiming for costs because, by the time they're getting a CCJ issued for a fine that was paid months ago, someone has obviously been negligent here. (I'm guessing UK Parking Control given when you look up the reference on their website from the pay button, it says nothing is left to pay.  But when you look it up from the appeal button, it says it's too late to appeal as it's gone to court. - Suggests it's a company where the right hand and left hand don't know what each other are doing)

I had to point out that my company isn't going to be happy with me flying off to the UK for however long it takes to deal with this. Is there a way to countersue for a bogus claim after a judgment, after it's paid?

Gr1pr

It's immoral , but not illegal 

No court has decided that you owed the money,  but a court claim was issued by the CNBC in Northampton using MCOL , it was undefended so the CCJ button was pressed by the claimant or their lawyers, pretty much a paper exercise,  no actual court was involved,  the CCJ was rubber stamped due to no legal challenge within the time period allowed 

The CCJ will go live after the 30 days grace period expires,  automatically,  if it remains unpaid , cancellation is not an option,  just payment in full before the deadline,  or a set aside

Yes the set aside fee is £303 ( personally I don't believe your in person statement,  it's usually done through email and paperwork, although you may be able to attend remotely if it has a set aside hearing in Civil court    )

There was no fine,  just a £100 pcn invoice from a private parking company,  UKPC , in an unregulated industry 

The £170 must have been paid to a debt collector or legal company,  not UKPC

michaelleiper

Gr1pr said:

It's immoral , but not illegal 

No court has decided that you owed the money,  but a court claim was issued by the CNBC in Northampton using mcol, it was undefended so the CCJ button was pressed by the claimant or their lawyers, pretty much a paper exercise,  no actual court was involved,  the CCJ was rubber stamped due to no legal challenge within the time period allowed 

The CCJ will go live after the 30 days grace period expires,  automatically,  if it remains unpaid , cancellation is not an option,  just payment in full before the deadline,  or a set aside

Yes the set aside fee is £303 ( personally I don't believe your in person statement,  it's usually done through email and paperwork, although you may be able to attend remotely if it has a set aside hearing in Civil court    )

There was no fine,  just a pcn invoice from a private parking company,  UKPC , in an unregulated industry 

The £170 must have been paid to a debt collector or legal company,  not UKPC

We have the receipt as an email from UK Parking Control for the £170 fine.
They were paid directly, no debt collector or legal company involved.


From: UKPC (No Reply) <no-reply@ukparkingcontrol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 11:24
Subject: UKPC Payment Receipt - PCN Reference 9026*********
To: <****leiper@googlemail.com>

Parking Charge Payment Receipt

Reference Number: 9026********* Vehicle Registration Number: E*68*** Transaction Reference: ch_3QD1jcL8gai1DUxI062VJhvD Amount Paid: £170.00

Sent to: ****leiper@googlemail.com © 2024 UK Parking Control Ltd. All rights reserved. Registered in England & Wales. Union House, 111 New Union Street, Coventry CV1 2NT. Registered No: 5104383

michaelleiper

Just to clarify...

We paid the Parking Charge Notice to UKPC themselves directly in October.

They issued a CCJ for the same Parking Charge Notice (If I incorrectly call it a fine - sorry).in December.

That is what I think must be illegal. How is it legal to ask the court to enforce payment for a parking charge that is already paid?

michaelleiper

On the phone, the court didn't say I had to attend in person. But the website they directed me to did.

from "https <colon slash slash> www.gov.uk/county-court-judgments-ccj-for-debt/cancel-the-judgment"

"You’ll have to go to a private hearing at the court to explain why you do not owe the money."

michaelleiper

michaelleiper said:

On the phone, the court didn't say I had to attend in person. But the website they directed me to did.

from "https <colon slash slash> www.gov.uk/county-court-judgments-ccj-for-debt/cancel-the-judgment"

"You’ll have to go to a private hearing at the court to explain why you do not owe the money."

To clarify - if you're telling me that I won't actually have to be in court in person. The £303 fee to get it set aside is looking a lot more likely.

Gr1pr

I am telling you that sometimes it can be done remotely,  but I cannot pretend to know the justice system minutia,  this is a parking charge forum, but your case has progressed to a civil justice problem and certain remedies 

Had you come here at the debt collectors stage, we could have told you to name the driver,  but you have retained responsibility,  paid UKPC and are now trying to unravel a time limited can of worms dogs breakfast,  from afar 

You have my sympathies,  but you might need legal advice from a qualified person,  not lay volunteers like me 

Usually we help people who are in England and Wales,  not abroad,  especially not with a legal dogs breakfast like this case

michaelleiper

Gr1pr said:

I am telling you that sometimes it can be done remotely,  but I cannot pretend to know the justice system minutia,  this is a parking charge forum, but your case has progressed to a civil justice problem and certain remedies 

Had you come here at the debt collectors stage, we could have told you to name the driver,  but you have retained responsibility,  paid UKPC and are now trying to unravel a time limited can of worms dogs breakfast,  from afar 

You have my sympathies,  but you might need legal advice from a qualified person,  not lay volunteers like me 

Usually we help people who are in England and Wales,  not abroad,  especially not with a legal dogs breakfast like this case

I've sent UKPC an email stating that if I end up having to attend court in the UK to get the judgment set aside (because, oddly enough, I never saw any letters - except the one that my daughter opened - which was when she paid the £170), I will invoice them for the cost of me attending the court.
Pretty sure that it would be simple to prove negligence on their part in getting a CCJ issued on a parking charge that's already paid. If only because that means effectively someone told the court something that wasn't true (unintentionally probably - but it doesn't alter the fact it wasn't true). That should, I hope, make my costs in attending the court (if necessary) become chargeable. i.e. t I could issue them with an invoice, then take them to court if they don't pay, and they can try to explain to a judge why I'm not entitled to claim the cost of attending the court to deal with what is pretty obviously negligence on their part.

My daughter told UKPC in October that she was the one driving, and that I was in Hong Kong.
So, at least in theory, they ought to be aware of that fact.
But given they took payment from her, and issued her the receipt - but didn't even bother to update their system to avoid a CCJ being issued a few months later... (and apparently I'm not the only person that's happened to with UK Parking Control) - I'm not hopeful on them having noted that down. However, I do know they were told... if asked by the judge if it comes to it.

P.S. As far as I'm aware, there was no debt collector stage. We paid UKPC directly, and the next I hear about it, 2½ months later, is the CCJ notice of default judgment..

Coupon-mad

1. Please tell your daughter not to ever pay private parking charges (why did she pay?) and certainly NEVER £170. That was money down the drain that nobody had to pay.

2. None of the letters you describe required a signature.  That's not the case. Unimportant in the scheme of things but when I read your account I knew for a fact that none of these letters were sent 'signed-for'. Your family misled you on that for some reason that I don't understand, and doesn't matter.  Understandably, maybe they remembered wrong and felt stressed about what they'd done.

3. If you tick 'with a hearing' on your N244 form. then yes you would be expected to attend an in-person hearing.

4. An alternative would be a N244 attaching two witness statements; one from you and and from the family member who fell for the scam threatograms and mistakenly paid £170, and tick "without a hearing".  The application would then be heard on the papers and would only cost you a £119 fee, which you would ask the court in your N244 for an order for UKPC to repay to you.  Your case is simple; it doesn't need a hearing as long as you are sure the one that was paid was the same PCN ref as appeared on the Claim Form Particulars.

5.  But I would do neither - NO APPLICATION - and simply follow up with another email to DCB Legal giving them a deadline to draw up a consent order at their client's  expense because this is clearly their error. Give them until 31st January and tell them THEY must submit the Consent Order to court as you are abroad and are the innocent party.  You won't be doing anything nor paying a fee unless they fail to sort this out promptly in January and apologise.  If they fail to act then you'll do a N244 and hold them liable for all costs including flying from your home in Hong Kong if necessary.

6.  I really wish nobody had paid...!

7.  Please educate your family never to do this again but they should be opening your post every week (and not bizarrely telling you that some letters were 'signed-for' when I'm telling you they absolutely weren't).

michaelleiper

5.  But I would do neither - NO APPLICATION - and simply follow up with another email to DCB Legal giving them a deadline to draw up a consent order at their client's  expense because this is clearly their error. Give them until 31st January and tell them THEY must submit the Consent Order to court as you are abroad and are the innocent party.  You won't be doing anything nor paying a fee unless they fail to sort this out promptly in January and apologise.  If they fail to act then you'll do a N244 and hold them liable for all costs including flying from your home in Hong Kong if necessary.

If I leave it until 31st January, that's after the 30 days on the letter from the court - that would mean a CCJ on my credit file for the next 6 years.
No thanks.

P.S. Pretty sure it's the same one - as if you use the one we have the receipt for and go to UKPC's web page and enter it and our licence plate - it says it's gone to the court...