Section 8 query

Brie

for a friend so I don't have all the details but he's currently in hospital so I'm just trying to be supportive......

So J was supposed to be having a meeting with the person he calls his landlord today but knew he was going to miss it as he was admitted to hospitial late last night.  He knows his LL wants to sell the property but he can't issue a S21 as there are a number of statutory things that need to be done first.  One of these is an energy efficiency rating and an electrical certificate apparently and that was the point of the LL coming to his today.  But he's not there so it can't be done unless the LL breaks down the door.  

The LL had stated that this meeting must take place today and if J did anything to stop or delay it he would simply issue a S8 instead of a S21 on the basis that J didn't allow him access today he would be in breach of access clause in his tenancy agreement.  

Now some of this makes sense to me although I would think that being admitted to hospital would be a fairly good defense if/when this goes to court.  But I'm not a LL or a tenant so maybe I'm wrong.

But here's the rub....the person J calls LL is actually the son of the person that owned the property when he moved in about 30 years back.  The owner decided a number of years back that he didn't want to manage a number of properties so gave them to his children to manage instead.  Part of this agreement is that the children collect and keep the rent.  I get the idea that this was a cunning plan for the owner to get around something in a divorce settlement. 

J describes the situation as the properties were "signed over" to the children.  Now if the property J is in was given to the son outright then he would be a sitting tenant at what might otherwise have been the sale of a property and as far as I can see there is very little right for the new LL to take advantage of S8 conditions.  On the other hand if the son is merely the manager this is no different than a rental agency I think.  So can a rental agency issue a S8? or even a S21??

But the son says it's him selling the property so that makes me think that he owns it.

Hope that's not too confusing but also includes enough details for someone to make an educated guess about what might happen next.

RAS

For a small fee, understand it's recently doubled to £7, you can get details of the ownership from the Land Registry, assuming Engald or Wales, similar in Scotland. Make sure to use the gov.uk site.

Brie

RAS said:

For a small fee, understand it's recently doubled to £7, you can get details of the ownership from the Land Registry, assuming Engald or Wales, similar in Scotland. Make sure to use the gov.uk site.

so knowing who the actual LL is would be significant??

theartfullodger

You do not have to own a property to be a landlord.  But "landlord" must have authority from owner to be landlord (unless a crook, quite common, easy fraud...). Yes, get details of owner & their address from gov.uk land registry.. see...
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

S8 notice does not end a tenancy nor compel tenant to leave : Only a court can do that (Thatcher's 1988 Housing Act).

The key mandatory ground for s8 is rent arrears, so unless the tenant is seriously in arrears (usually over 2 months owin) v v unlikely any judge would grant a possession order.

See what paperwork is served then post again.  

Good luck.

See here for details of s8 notices...

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/eviction_after_a_section_8_notice/possession_grounds

Most "landlords" don;t understand the law and will get notice wrong or invalid (I'm a landlord..)

Brie

Thanks @theartfullodger
No rent arrears, just someone who wants to sell the property and is looking for reasons to enforce it.

And as you say most landlords don't understand the law.  Apparently the one in question is having my friend pay the rent into a child's bank account.  Because the child doesn't have to pay tax.  So......I've suggested mentioning HMRC to the LL.  See if that gets them to play nicely.

PRAISETHESUN

Ultimately the LL/agent (essentially the same person in the eyes of housing law) can issue whatever notice they want, but it's up to the courts to decide if it's enforceable. Given S8 is primarily for rent arrears, if they went down that route without there being any arrears then they'd get nowhere and waste their own time and money. That only leaves them with the S21 route and it also sounds like that's a non-starter until they get their act together and issue all the required paperwork. Your friend doesn't need to co-operate if they don't want to, it's ultimately the LL's problem.

Sounds like your friend is in a fairly powerful position. No sane person would purchase a property with a sitting tenant unless they were planning to take over as LL. They would otherwise require vacant possession, which the owner can't guarantee without eviction. Could always ask for an incentive (think £££) to be encouraged to leave with a minimal amount of fuss...

silvercar

Is there a possibility that the landlord has keys? If so, having given notice that entry is required in order to complete a legal requirement, there is no necessity for the tenant to be home.

born_again

If there is no energy efficiency rating, then what else is the LL failing on?

Annual safety certificates all up to date?

theartfullodger

Assuming this is England,, see this about payment of rent - who to,,,...
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/costs_of_renting/rents_and_rent_increases/payment_of_rent

"""

Who rent is paid to/who can pay the rent/where should it be paid?

Rent must be paid by the tenant to the landlord or their agent. Rent paid by the tenant's husband, wife or civil partner is to be treated as if paid by the tenant.[3] Payment by someone else on behalf of the tenant must be authorised or subsequently ratified by them.

The tenant is required to pay the rent at any place specified by the contract, or to seek out the landlord to make the payment.

If the landlord refuses to accept the rent, then the tenant should keep the rent in a designated account and make regular attempts to pay it.  """

I think payment to a child is a problem as, if I remember correctly, someone younger than 16 (or 18??) can't legally receive rent. 

Tenant should talk to Citizens advice or a solicitor  (This could be a big problem...)

HOW exactly was tenant told to pay rent to child?? In writing or email (ie they've still got a copy proving "landlord" told them to?? (Good...) Or just verbally, told to, no proof...?? (Bad..)

What does the tenancy agreement state (exactly) about paying rent - when, to who, how (bank transfer, cash.. )?? 

Do they know if "landlord" is declaring ALL rent to HMRC?? (If not may be useful blackmail against landlord...)

Sounds v suspicious...

saajan_12

Brie said:

for a friend so I don't have all the details but he's currently in hospital so I'm just trying to be supportive......

So J was supposed to be having a meeting with the person he calls his landlord today but knew he was going to miss it as he was admitted to hospitial late last night.  He knows his LL wants to sell the property but he can't issue a S21 as there are a number of statutory things that need to be done first.  One of these is an energy efficiency rating and an electrical certificate apparently and that was the point of the LL coming to his today.  But he's not there so it can't be done unless the LL breaks down the door.  

The LL had stated that this meeting must take place today and if J did anything to stop or delay it he would simply issue a S8 instead of a S21 on the basis that J didn't allow him access today he would be in breach of access clause in his tenancy agreement.  

Now some of this makes sense to me although I would think that being admitted to hospital would be a fairly good defense if/when this goes to court.  But I'm not a LL or a tenant so maybe I'm wrong.

.

Well it depends on what the history has been - if its a one off failure to provide access, then that doesn't make it reasonable to tear up an agreement for that.. simply rearrange for the near future and argue the toss about whether the Tenant reimburses some of the cost eg if there's a wasted call out or etc. If its been ongoing for a long period of the LL being denied access and hence cannot reasonably expect that a quick rearrangement will solve things, then perhaps that is the subject of a valid S8 notice. 

Brie said:

But here's the rub....the person J calls LL is actually the son of the person that owned the property when he moved in about 30 years back.  The owner decided a number of years back that he didn't want to manage a number of properties so gave them to his children to manage instead.  Part of this agreement is that the children collect and keep the rent.  I get the idea that this was a cunning plan for the owner to get around something in a divorce settlement. 

J describes the situation as the properties were "signed over" to the children.  Now if the property J is in was given to the son outright then he would be a sitting tenant at what might otherwise have been the sale of a property and as far as I can see there is very little right for the new LL to take advantage of S8 conditions.  On the other hand if the son is merely the manager this is no different than a rental agency I think.  So can a rental agency issue a S8? or even a S21??

But the son says it's him selling the property so that makes me think that he owns it.

Hope that's not too confusing but also includes enough details for someone to make an educated guess about what might happen next.

This is likely a red herring. The son could effectively be an agent of the LL and owner, or Owner could give authority to son to be the LL (for example if Son rented from Owner and then subletted to the Tenant J). Words said as "I will do x" v "my father will do x" is not expected to be so precise. 
Yes an agent can issue notices on behalf of their client.