Third Party Self Insured Rip Off

rippedoffandfedup · 9 January at 1:14PM

Well, where do I start.

On December 1st, I was attending an event (my business) and as we were packing up an Amey Highways tipper truck reversed down the drivers side of my van. My van was parked completely off the path area we were told to drive along to our area and there was loads of room, however the Amey employee decided that instead of driving around the path from the other end like everyone else, he would reverse down a dark dimly lit area with no-one guiding him and not paying attention properly. There was loads of room, but he was so busy looking down his drivers side, he didn't see my big white van and reversed right down the side... writing my van off.

The Amey employee then proceeded to get out of the vehicle he was driving, scream and shout and swear, punch a fence several times and then storm off - leaving the Amey Highways tipper truck running with the drivers door wide open. He came back about 10 minutes later. His supervisor then came to see me about 30 minutes later and said "I don't even know what the f*** he was reversing down there for anyway". I was left with a van which the drivers door would not close to figure out how to get it home and go from there.

The next morning, I contacted the Amey transport management team as no-one had contacted me yet. They knew nothing about it and told me that the guy and his supervisor should have filed a report that night but hadn't. I had to wait because those guys are night shift and I would need to wait until that night. Left with no driveable van, I was left waiting.

The next day, I contacted the transport manager i'd spoken to regarding it and was told it was in the process of being sorted and I would get a call from their claims handling company because they were self insured and they outsourced this. Finally later that day I called back and got the number to call the claims handling company directly. I then called Sopp & Sopp and they organised a courtesy van, but I couldn't get this until the next morning due to the time of day now. So i've now been 2 days without a van.

Got the courtesy van the next day and had my van down at my local bodyshop to send them a quote. The bodyshop told me they had been given a repair ceiling of £4085 for my van, but it would be a write off as they couldn't do it for that. I then called Sopp & Sopp to make sure things were moving along. I was told I'd hear back soon.

I didn't hear anything, despite touching base several times between. Then on Monday 6th January (over a month since the accident) I called Sopp & Sopp again to see what was going on. I was told that they didn't deal with that part and it had been passed to another outsourced company Keoghs. I then called Keoghs and was told that I would be given £3245 for my van. I stated that this didn't make sense as they had told the bodyshop £4085 to repair.

I looked on Autotrader, and there is no way I can replace my van like for like for this. The closest I could find was the exact same van as mines, same mileage, but a full 5 years older priced at £3000. I contacted Keoghs again and was asked to send examples. I sent 6 examples ranging from this one at £3000 for 5 years older, to one that was 1 year newer, a but less miles and the bigger engine but was the same van at £8394. They only took the one 5 years older into consideration as it was the only one with the same engine, and they wouldn't change the valuation. There weren't any other comparable vans that were exactly the same as mines on the market.

I'm now in a position that they are raising the payment and want the courtesy van back, but i'm unable to replace my van with anything remotely similar that isn't 5 years older. I called the ombudsman, but they can't do anything as i'm not a direct customer - essentially you can only complain about your own insurer, not third parties.

What can I do, as they are now charging on and sending the payment but I won't have a van. I only want to be put back to the same position as I was before the accident.... I'm not trying to make a buck, but I'm not willing to go into a van that is 5 years older than mines just because some tube wasn't paying attention that worked for a multi-million pound company and damaged my van.

It just seems like once again the little guy gets crapped on from a great height...

Help please

TheSpectator · 9 January at 2:32PM

What is your own insurance company saying on the matter? Do you have legal cover on that?

Mildly_Miffed · 9 January at 2:34PM

Nothing about the fact it's "self-insured" or who the company is is particularly relevant to the situation. If you're not happy, claim from your own insurer, and let them deal with the other party...

Anyway, the relevant details:
Your vehicle was hit by a third party who have admitted fault.
You are claiming from them, and have been passed to a claims management outfit.
They have offered you an amount you feel too low.
You have given them comparables, and they're raising the payment, but you don't feel by enough.

Same engine, same mileage, 5yr older = £3k
Different engine, lower mileage, 1yr newer = £8.4k
So yours would be somewhere between... but there's not enough there to say exactly where.

What's the valuation difference between your engine and the bigger one, where there are comparables available?

Is 5yrs age difference a substantial or fairly minor proportion of the vehicle age?
Given we're talking about a ~£5-6k van, we're clearly not talking about a 3yo vs 8yo vehicle, where it's a substantial valuation difference. If we're talking about a 15yo vs 20yo difference, I'd suggest that it was a small difference, and condition was much more relevant than age.

Does that age difference either way fall either side of emission cut-offs? For instance, is the £8.4k newer van Euro6? That would add a substantial amount to the value.

Very few insurers will give a courtesy vehicle once a write-off has been agreed, even when the amount is still in debate.

Mildly_Miffed · 9 January at 3:02PM

Oh, and Amey aren't "self-insured". They still have motor insurance.

The government ran a consultation in 2019 about the future of the scheme whereby a half million pound deposit could be lodged to allow true self-insurance.

The result of that consultation was that no new deposits could be lodged, and all those with deposits already lodged had two years to change to "proper" insurance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/motor-insurance-alternatives-removal-of-deposit-and-security-options/outcome/summary-of-responses-to-the-consultation-and-the-department-for-transport-response

What's actually happening here is quite simply that Amey are saying "We'll pay ourseives, rather than bother our insurer."
Of course, anybody can do that - even the 17yo in the Corsa who just drove into you and is scared of the effect on their future premium...

If you want to find out who their insurer actually is, so you can claim from them, ask MID.
https://www.askmid.com/askmidenquiry.aspx

DullGreyGuy · 9 January at 4:18PM

rippedoffandfedup said:

Well, where do I start.

On December 1st, I was attending an event (my business) and as we were packing up an Amey Highways tipper truck reversed down the drivers side of my van. My van was parked completely off the path area we were told to drive along to our area and there was loads of room, however the Amey employee decided that instead of driving around the path from the other end like everyone else, he would reverse down a dark dimly lit area with no-one guiding him and not paying attention properly. There was loads of room, but he was so busy looking down his drivers side, he didn't see my big white van and reversed right down the side... writing my van off.

The Amey employee then proceeded to get out of the vehicle he was driving, scream and shout and swear, punch a fence several times and then storm off - leaving the Amey Highways tipper truck running with the drivers door wide open. He came back about 10 minutes later. His supervisor then came to see me about 30 minutes later and said "I don't even know what the f*** he was reversing down there for anyway". I was left with a van which the drivers door would not close to figure out how to get it home and go from there.

The next morning, I contacted the Amey transport management team as no-one had contacted me yet. They knew nothing about it and told me that the guy and his supervisor should have filed a report that night but hadn't. I had to wait because those guys are night shift and I would need to wait until that night. Left with no driveable van, I was left waiting.

The next day, I contacted the transport manager i'd spoken to regarding it and was told it was in the process of being sorted and I would get a call from their claims handling company because they were self insured and they outsourced this. Finally later that day I called back and got the number to call the claims handling company directly. I then called Sopp & Sopp and they organised a courtesy van, but I couldn't get this until the next morning due to the time of day now. So i've now been 2 days without a van.

Got the courtesy van the next day and had my van down at my local bodyshop to send them a quote. The bodyshop told me they had been given a repair ceiling of £4085 for my van, but it would be a write off as they couldn't do it for that. I then called Sopp & Sopp to make sure things were moving along. I was told I'd hear back soon.

I didn't hear anything, despite touching base several times between. Then on Monday 6th January (over a month since the accident) I called Sopp & Sopp again to see what was going on. I was told that they didn't deal with that part and it had been passed to another outsourced company Keoghs. I then called Keoghs and was told that I would be given £3245 for my van. I stated that this didn't make sense as they had told the bodyshop £4085 to repair.

I looked on Autotrader, and there is no way I can replace my van like for like for this. The closest I could find was the exact same van as mines, same mileage, but a full 5 years older priced at £3000. I contacted Keoghs again and was asked to send examples. I sent 6 examples ranging from this one at £3000 for 5 years older, to one that was 1 year newer, a but less miles and the bigger engine but was the same van at £8394. They only took the one 5 years older into consideration as it was the only one with the same engine, and they wouldn't change the valuation. There weren't any other comparable vans that were exactly the same as mines on the market.

I'm now in a position that they are raising the payment and want the courtesy van back, but i'm unable to replace my van with anything remotely similar that isn't 5 years older. I called the ombudsman, but they can't do anything as i'm not a direct customer - essentially you can only complain about your own insurer, not third parties.

What can I do, as they are now charging on and sending the payment but I won't have a van. I only want to be put back to the same position as I was before the accident.... I'm not trying to make a buck, but I'm not willing to go into a van that is 5 years older than mines just because some tube wasn't paying attention that worked for a multi-million pound company and damaged my van.

It just seems like once again the little guy gets crapped on from a great height...

Help please

It was a significant mistake to provide them with the details of the older vehicle!

Your options are really:

1) Claim off your own insurance, you should however make them aware of all of the above. There is a risk that they won't reimburse your insurers in full because of the dispute over valuation etc and were that the case it would be considered a fault claim.

2) Commission an independent engineer to value the vehicle, submit this as evidence and then go through the process of Letter Before Action and County Court Claim if they arent willing to increase settlement

3) Accept what they've offered for an easy life

Mildly_Miffed said:

Oh, and Amey aren't "self-insured". They still have motor insurance.

The government ran a consultation in 2019 about the future of the scheme whereby a half million pound deposit could be lodged to allow true self-insurance.

The result of that consultation was that no new deposits could be lodged, and all those with deposits already lodged had two years to change to "proper" insurance.

I would strongly argue that the former bond that you could deposit meant you could drive uninsured rather than self insured.

Taking "self" in a corporate context to mean within the group then self insurance is certainly still possible, a company can create a legal insurance entity and use it to insure your vehicles. There are companies like ARM in Guernsey that will help you setup and run the captive insurer for you and it issues the motor certificates and you wholly own it so it's your self insurance.

There are other looser options too like buying loss sensitive insurance which legally is ground up Motor insurance but you formally or informally reinsure the policy back to yourself and the insurer gives you claims management authority and matters are dealt with on a net basis so, in principle the insurer pays the TP £100k and the PH then reimburses the £100k to the insurer but in practice the PH simply pays the TP the £100k and the rest just happens on paper.