Suspected energy theft

Scot_39

Any chance it could be something like a frost tube heater - if 50W only happening in colder weather - the small ones iirc start c30-40W.

We used to have one in the kitchen to keep pipes safe in winter - and one in the loft "under" the cold water tank - at parents house.

GingerTim

gurudave said:

matt_drummer said:

gurudave said:

matt_drummer said:

What would happen to your flat without the sump pump?

It's of no benefit to you?

That's not the point though. If I'm responsible for paying for it then it should be mentioned in the contract, I think.

You could turn it off then.

Presumably, your contract does mention your responsibility for ensuring that the flat is maintained in a certain condition?

If so, ensuring that it is not flooded is down to the tenant (you) and any damaged caused by flooding is for the tenant to repair at their cost.

I would have thought that the small cost of running a pump, if that it was this is, is a cost well worth suffering.

However, as others have said, this pump is unlikely to be running continuously, that is not how they work normally.

Do you have access to the pump?

Can you tell when it is running?

I can't turn it off as it's (probably) wired in to the kitchen circuit. It's under the kitchen floor and is inaccessible. 

Probably for the best!

matt_drummer

gurudave said:

matt_drummer said:

gurudave said:

matt_drummer said:

What would happen to your flat without the sump pump?

It's of no benefit to you?

That's not the point though. If I'm responsible for paying for it then it should be mentioned in the contract, I think.

You could turn it off then.

Presumably, your contract does mention your responsibility for ensuring that the flat is maintained in a certain condition?

If so, ensuring that it is not flooded is down to the tenant (you) and any damaged caused by flooding is for the tenant to repair at their cost.

I would have thought that the small cost of running a pump, if that it was this is, is a cost well worth suffering.

However, as others have said, this pump is unlikely to be running continuously, that is not how they work normally.

Do you have access to the pump?

Can you tell when it is running?

I can't turn it off as it's (probably) wired in to the kitchen circuit. It's under the kitchen floor and is inaccessible. 

You can turn it off, by turning off the supply to your kitchen at the consumer unit.

Have you actually checked when the pump is running and if you are able to turn it off by turning off the supply to your kitchen?

I don't think it is reasonable to expect not to have the electricity supply to the pump fed from the flat it protects.

It's just part of life and the costs of living in a property whether you own it or not.

Gerry1

You may well have numerous items on standby, all drawing a few watts.  Modern devices use very little but older ones can be several watts each.  Microwave, washing machine, radio, smart speaker. cooker, freezer, fridge, cordless phone base station, router, mobile phone charger, TV, PIR light, doorbell...

Unplug everything and the power draw is likely to decease.

DullGreyGuy

gurudave said:

I do however believe that if there is some (hidden) device that consumes power then the tenancy agreement should mention it and who is responsible for paying for it.

Is there any legal basis for saying it has to be listed in the tenancy agreement? Normally it would just say you are responsible for all utilities and maintaining the property in a good state of repair. If it is a sump pump then it's using a utility and is part of the process of keeping it in a good state of repair. 

We rented a new build house once, one day notice that ours and the neighbouring property both had a power cable coming out the wall and going into ducting in the ground, the space between the two properties was just a pedestrian cut through to the carparking. Asked the Landlord who said they had no idea what it was and so contacted the developers. They said all 8 of the houses had one and each one powers one of the 8 lights in the resident car parking. 

For me it was a 1-2 watts when the light wasnt on and circa 6-8 watts when it was on in the evening/early morning plus electricity was much cheaper but all residents were funding one light, we all had equal use of the car park, didnt seem a big thing to me nor something I felt necessary to argue with the landlord over. 

mmmmikey

Gerry1 said:

You may well have numerous items on standby, all drawing a few watts.  Modern devices use very little but older ones can be several watts each.  Microwave, washing machine, radio, smart speaker. cooker, freezer, fridge, cordless phone base station, router, mobile phone charger, TV, PIR light, doorbell...

Unplug everything and the power draw is likely to decease.

I suspect this is the most likely explanation, coupled with the fact that the current clamp measuring devices are notoriously inaccurate at low power measurement.

By the way, it can be surprisingly how much energy some devices use - for example my fridge and broadband router use roughly the same amount over a 24 hour period. 

I'd suggest you do exactly what Gerry suggests and unplug absolutely everything, and then see what happens as you plug them back on one by one.

gurudave

Gerry1 said:

You may well have numerous items on standby, all drawing a few watts.  Modern devices use very little but older ones can be several watts each.  Microwave, washing machine, radio, smart speaker. cooker, freezer, fridge, cordless phone base station, router, mobile phone charger, TV, PIR light, doorbell...

Unplug everything and the power draw is likely to decease.

If you read my original post you'll see that I switched everything off (except the kitchen circuit) at the distribution panel and isolated everything (hob, oven, boiler) and switched items in the the kitchen.

DullGreyGuy

mmmmikey said:

I'd suggest you do exactly what Gerry suggests and unplug absolutely everything, and then see what happens as you plug them back on one by one.

Thats assuming you can find the plugs/switches for everything... been in our home over 5 years now and still never found anything for switching off the cooker hood. Inside the chimney, which was masticed to the wall, is a junction box connecting a cable from the wall to the hood but never found an isolation switch or anything else, assume its a spur off the kitchen's ring and unswitched. 

Alnat1

Is there a wired in smoke alarm that could be using a few watts?

Gerry1

gurudave said:

Gerry1 said:

You may well have numerous items on standby, all drawing a few watts.  Modern devices use very little but older ones can be several watts each.  Microwave, washing machine, radio, smart speaker. cooker, freezer, fridge, cordless phone base station, router, mobile phone charger, TV, PIR light, doorbell...

Unplug everything and the power draw is likely to decease.

If you read my original post you'll see that I switched everything off (except the kitchen circuit) at the distribution panel and isolated everything (hob, oven, boiler) and switched items in the the kitchen.

Perhaps I need to go to Specsavers, but I can't find the word 'isolated' in your original post !  (Note that sometimes I tend to answer a bit generically to help others who may have a similar problem.)

To clarify, there are three actions which are subtly but importantly different, and sometimes they are used interchangeably.  People usually take the context into account and get the gist, but in this case it does matter.  (It's a bit like rookie estate agents referring to 13A outlets on the wall as 'plug sockets' as mentioned a few weeks ago, but let's not go there.)

Something that's said to be 'switched off' could be:-

• Switched off at the front of the appliance, e.g. my washing machine and my tumble dryer.  They have push buttons that move, but they still draw some current.  They used to use rotary timers with a slipping clutch, cf. a Smith's 'pinger'.  Their electronic replacements are cheaper and more reliable but the 'vampire load' can be a drawback.
  
• Switched off at the socket on the wall.  That's usually OK and kills the vampire load, but it's not 100% foolproof.  Mechanical things can fail and the live and neutral wires could be reversed.  That's why you should never rely on the socket's switch when working on an appliance.
• Unplugged by pulling the plug out of the socket.  Unfortunately it can be awkward to reach the socket if it's under the back of a worktop, but it's the only way to be certain and safe.