Provider Transfer

Stjernoy

I decided to transfer my provider few weeks ago from OLD to NEW - better not give names - and it was carried out 26th December 2024/27th December 2024. So far so good. Couple days later I went into OLD on line account to transfer £600 of my credit back into my account - I was more or less £800 in credit and the final GAS would be about £120 - only to be met with this message -"Sorry, we can't process a refund for you right now.We can't automatically approve your refund request online, because you don't appear to be a customer at the moment. If you'd like a human to process this refund for you."
Sent message to OLD and they replied "did you take photos at transfer?" - I replied NO as I assumed that when I sent readings they would automatically verify each other.
I should explain that we have an ELEC SMART and a GAS UNSMART - OLD resolutely uses the smart readings for billing but rejects my request to to fit a GAS SMART - according to OLD "the signal is unsatisfactory" - work that one out at your leisure - both meters are within 30cm of each other.
Anyhow I saw that on both OLD and NEW website accounts they were using the Elec Smart readings at the change over - the extra digits were were included after the full stop. I NEVER include these digits. As I have to senf the GAS meter by hand I include both ELEC and GAS.
So I know very well that both OLD and new were using identical finish / start figures.
That leaves GAS reading and of course I  checked and YES they had identical figures - as they should as I sent them.
Now OLD says problem is with NEW as they dont send D86 flow yet and that this can take up to 6 weeks then another couple of weeks for final accounts. Seems that external verifier send messages by smoke signals - - 6 weeks !! - give me patience

My point is that nothing is ever included in any changeover website or similar making people aware of these pitfalls - number 1 advice - reduce your credit to absolute minimum.

I copied messages to NEW - automated reply - we'll get back to you.

My own fault I suppose shouldn't have kept so much credit in the account - be aware.

Scot_39

Firstly many suppliers wouldn't give you a full refund at this time of year on annualised plans anyway.

You would easily expect to be say 2m in credit by autumn.

Secondly the suplliers have to agree the readings - iirc the ones given to new supplier (it's a new pull system by design)  - before final bills issued.

This from a quick google for D86 MSE may be out of date 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/20154043/#Comment_20154043

Gerry1

Just pay by Monthly Variable Direct Debit (Whole Bill Payment) and you won't build up a mountain of credit.  Of course, this does mean higher bills in winter and lower bills in summer.  Unfortunately some suppliers don't offer it.

If dozy Ofgem were any good they'd mandate that all suppliers must offer MVDD.  Ofgem don't seem to have learned much from the failure of around 30 companies during the energy crisis, some of which were caused by amateur outfits using credit balances to finance their businesses, Ponzi style. The failures cost consumers an estimated £2.7bn, or an extra £94 each.

Scot_39

Off topic for OP, but

Ofgem have in fact tried to learn from failures.

And supllier failure is arguably part of reason they do not mandate MVDD at DD payment rates.

And also in part why have repeatedly decided not to fully ring fence customer credit balances.  IIRC the new 20% held based on passing new financial health metric goes live this spring.

Because cashflow financing costs matters to business health - and impacts costs.


MVDD is a pay in arrears billing system with associated  cash flow costs and default risks.

Pretty much the same level for those 2 cost components as those now on monthly standard credit billing.  

Standard credit cap is as of Wed now c£113 higher than annualised DD cap.

pseudodox

Accepting that people on MSE are a very small proportion of energy customers I see that those here like me on MVDD seem to have least problems and must therefore be customers with limited account management costs to their energy company who each month take a DD for actual usage against real bills, draw a line, and never have to issue refunds or request large catch up payments.  Issuing refunds, dealing with complaints, reviewing/amending FDDs, reconciling prepayments against usage statements etc are all staff/admin costs to the company.  It is not Del Trotter sitting in a council flat buying and selling a product with no associated cost of running a business.

If I do fail to send in monthly readings to generate an accurate bill EDF will issue an estimated bill AND take a default fixed amount from my bank against that bill.  It has never happened yet, nor do I read here or know of anyone for whom this has been the case.  I use a service, and I pay for what I have used - 3 actions per month for EDF - accept my readings, generate a bill, take DD.  Minimal admin cost for them with little if any human intervention.  I submitted readings on New Year's Day at 9am and by 7pm had my accurate bill.  I doubt some minion was sitting in an office working out the charges on an abacus or pocket calculator and and typing it up!  It is the DD guarantee system than dictates when payment can be taken.  I would be quite willing to pay that bill by bank transfer today, but that would incur admin costs for EDF.  They know that the money will hit their bank on the 17th so they can already allocate that money to an outgoing on their cashflow.  In the past when we were all on quarterly billing my cheques would go off as soon as the bill was received - I never had a red reminder in almost 50 years.  It would be a few days before they would receive and bank the cheque and then wait for clearance before they actually had the funds to make use of.

The  only people I see here defaulting on payments appear to be people who are paying a DD that is too low, whose meter readings are incorrect, or who 6 months or more down the line realise that their DDs are not even being taken.  Do you imagine that dealing with these people costs nothing in the cash flow of the provider?  And whilst they have to pay staff to deal with problems do you imagine those staff get paid at the START of the month for the time they are then anticipated to work?  I always got paid AFTER I had given my time and effort to any company I worked for.  I worked in accounts and customers who paid up without being chased cost far less of my time; regular reliable account payers were valued even if invoices to them were on 60 day terms as I could rely on them as the maintainstay of cashflow.

Cash flow is about management.  As someone said above every company should be obliged to offer MVDD as an option for those of us who can manage our cash flows and in many cases seemingly manage them better than the big corporates.  I don't condemn those who find FDD suits them better - and please don't kid yourself you are paying this way to help out a poor struggling corporate entity.  Are their CEOs and shareholders in dire straits?  You are paying this way because it is a good option that suits YOU.  Just as it does not suit many of us.

I wonder if the holier than thou brigade who condemn MVDD as a financial strategy pay for everything they buy upfront to the supplier, never putting anything on a credit card to delay the money actually leaving their own bank?  Incurring transaction charges to the supplier and delaying them receiving funds for goods and services provided. 

Stjernoy

Many thanks for your responses to this situation - but a few remarks to end it.
aa) it was never my intention to try and get full refund - I was was £790 in credit and I was trying to get £600 - now the account is frozen and I cannot get anything.
bb) BTW this £790 was after the electrical part of the bill was finalised - at transfer the crit was £850. On the part bill issued by OLD supplier for the electrical useage to the transfer date it was termed "closing reading" - independent verifer must have been on the spot when that was agreed. Gas meter verification ?? - he'd lost interest by then.
cc) I care not one whit about D86 flow, cashflow, balancing or the such like - its nothing to do with  me. But I find it strange that there are no warnings about the 6 weeks needed by the independent verifier. 
dd) My intent was only to make people aware "verification of up to 6 weeks is in place" - with an added rejoinder that up to 21 days is necessary to finalise accounts.
ee) all these "switching" websites are quite useful but not one of them mentions the pitfalls

It really gets to me when these companies treat you like a half wit - I'm not - I'm a highly intelligent engineer.

As I said - my own fault - but it won't happen again.

wakeupalarm

Stjernoy said:

I decided to transfer my provider few weeks ago from OLD to NEW - better not give names - and it was carried out 26th December 2024/27th December 2024. <snip>

Why not, it could help others decide to avoid them or not.

Gerry1

It's an agreed industry standard so no one company is likely to be worse than any other.  That's why there's little point in the suppliers publicising it, all it would do is discourage switching and reduce competition.

Progress also depends on  the machinations of The Mysterious Third Party, something over which the suppliers obviously have no control.

Lorian

On the bright side, If they don't bill you within 6 weeks + 1 day you are due £30 GSOP compensation from your old supplier. 

Stjernoy

Tell you a little more about the SMART / not SMART predicament that afflicts my property!!
BULB arranged PROVIDOR  to supply and install both new meters some years ago. Nice chap and very knowlegeable BUT after fitting the ELEC meter he was waylaid by whatever - said he would be back and was never to be seen again - why - heaven knows. 
However BULB were issued with the serial numbers of both meters were due to be fitted and assumed we were now a smart household. Anyhow after sorting this mess out BULB asked me to continue to send manual readings for both supplies of GAS and ELEC - they did not want to confuse billing with one smart and one unsmart. So everything went along as normal - one bill a month for the supply of energy - PLUS - my continued clamour for them to fit the new GAS meter. Unfortunately people change and reasons for continued use of manual readings were lost in the mists of time.
Then catastrophe - BULB folded and my provider became that sea creature from 20,000 Leagues under the sea.
The NEW provider would listen to no one and insisted I had both SMART meters - this was even after I had sent a photo of the old Parkinson Cowan (38 years old this year - bet he could surely tell a good tale to these new fangled ARTY SMARTIES - if only someone apart from me looked at him now and again - just to check his accuracy and useability - but accuracy means removal to a facility and flow test / leak test carried out - so better to leave that one alone - I don't think they could source an old fashioned meter if they tried - - or worse still they would be obliged to fit a Smart meter in its place - argh!!.)
ENOUGH Stjernoy - get to the point.
This year i have had 36 invoices from the NEW provider - 3 a month. They insist in using both the SMART readings for the ELEC and my manual figures for the both. I agreed 1st of month readings with BULB - new provider doesnt - he has much better system to confuse and  iritate at the same time. So much for the "Guff" that "nothing will change" as the good ship BULB sank without trace.
Thats it - i've had my moan and will now shut up - suffice to say - heaven help us all if this is the way some parts of the system works - truly abysmal.

Wish me luck with my new provider    ----- please.
PS after I sent message to OLD provider few days ago the writer signed off as "Love and Power Jake"

eh!! what planet does he inhabit - all a big joke to them.

EssexHebridean

Request a 1st month billing date with Octopus for your electric if that is the date that suits you.
Stop giving manual electric readings - just check those being sent by your smart meter are correct and match with billing.
Provide your manual gas meter reading on the 1st of each month and that will also produce a bill on the same day.

Easy, and will stop your issue with confusing billing and multiple bills being issued each month - it’s your insistence to provide manual readings for a meter that doesn’t require it which is currently causing that issue! 

If you want to make things even more straightforward, simply ask for a meter replacement for your ancient gas one too - then that too should send readings! The only time I ever get multiple bills in a month is if I change tariff.