Would a cheap Lexus CT 200H with lots of miles be worth it?

chssvl

I'm currently on the lookout for a very reliable car, automatic, not more than 10 years old, ideally at or below £8k and, as I do very few miles in a year (3,000 in a good year - likely even less, with the car likely spending weeks unused), I don't mind a car with lots of miles as long as it continues being reliable.

Given that reliability is a must, I've largely limited myself to Japanese cars (had previously asked here about a Honda Civic). One that I hadn't clocked but stumbled into was the Lexus CT 200h. I've seen some 2014 models for less than £8k but with lots of miles (around 150k). I've also been doing a lot of research and everyone seems to agree that these cars are as reliable as it gets, with very few known faults, and, being the same platform as the perennial minicab (i.e. Toyota Prius), even a car with 150k miles should in theory have a long life ahead of it - or so I'd like to think.

I know it got a lot of flak for not being very exciting, hating the eCVT (although it seems to be incredibly reliable) and having a stiff suspension, but I'm not too fussed about those things.

Of course, I would look for a car with service history and not too many previous owners. Does this make sense or am I kidding myself?

photome

I don’t know much about Lexus but I have driven many different cars over the last few years when my company car has been serviced/ repaired etc…I was given a Lexus 200 about 2 years ago for the day and can honestly say it is one of the worst cars I have driven in last few years  ( well an MG HS may have been worse) , my advice , take it for a long test drive first

forgotmyname

I always buy high mileage cars, but I am never in a hurry to buy one. Service history must be spot on.

The Service interval is a MAX not a target, avoid those cars that fail MOTs on obvious stuff that an owner should be checking

weekly.  Rolls into the service on the last mile and I walk away.

Receipts are a must not just a stamp in a book.  Stamp in the book does not show that the car needed work doing

and the owner declined it so receipts for stuff like brake fluid changes and belt changes done early is a win.

Goudy

The Lexus CT 200h uses the same Toyota hybrid system as similar year Prius and Auris.
So the same 1.8 litre Atkinson cycle engine, the same eCVT gearbox and the same battery technology.

These are all pretty robust but some parts have a shelf life.
It's a bit unfair to say they are faults, just over time they start to give up.

First one is the water pump.
It's electric and the centre part of the electric motor (the magnet) is on the back of the impeller.
The magnet part of the impeller has a rubberised covering and that starts to break down, the inside rusts and expands causing the impeller to slow and eventually jam in the housing.

A genuine Toyota pump is quite expensive to buy but usually fairly easy to fit. (don't fit anything other than genuine which is made by Aisin)
Time is a major factor with this problem, it takes years/miles for the rubber to break down and the internals to rust.

First sign is it throwing intermittent water pump speed related codes, don't ignore them as this can cause some over heating issues and it's not unheard of for head gaskets to fail due to this, the Prius has a bit of a reputation for this.

The mileage of this car suggests it's ripe for a new pump, if it's not had one or more already.


The second is the battery.
Toyota used nickel metal hydride batteries and they do tend to have a life, around 160,000 to 180,000 miles appears to be average.

The batteries are made up of modules with around 6 cells in each.
Modules are serially connected in pairs called blocks.
Then the blocks are all connected in series to make one big battery.

Over time the centre modules tend to heat up more due to being sandwiched between the others, there is an air cooling system fed via a fan but the centre modules do tend to drop off first over time and the battery goes out of balance.
The onboard electronics monitor the blocks and when the state of charge data (difference between all the blocks) increases, the battery is in effect dead and it starts shutting down the hybrid system and reporting the dreaded P0A80, replace battery!

You can't replace the iffy modules with new as that creates another imbalance between the new and the others that are left. It really needs a new battery.

Most "refurbishers" will replace the iffy cells with used cells similar to what is left, shuffle the order in the pack and put the modules through a few deep cycle charges, but these days supply of reasonable used modules are drying up and they don't usually last that long after, this is why they only "guarantee" their refurbed batteries for a short time. 

They don't utilise all of the battery. Max charge is 80% (even though it might show full on the in car screen) and the engine kicks in at 40% to recharge, so any slight charge/charge holding problem soon makes it's self known.

Deep cycling (charging above 80% and discharging below 40%) with a special charger is thought to make the battery last longer, this is particularly used by a lot of American owners, you find the forums full of them doing this).

You can do a simple test on the battery with a cheap (not free) app called Dr Prius and a bluetooth OBD2 dongle, it's not perfect but it should give to a rough idea if the battery is excellent, good, fair or fubar and a battery percentage score. 
I'd be reasonably happy with mid 70's percent - Good. 
(a fair report in the 60's by the app is knackered by the way).

It will also show you a graph of the charge delta, it should be fairly even but older batteries tend to show up as a U shape (lower charge in the centre modules).

chssvl

Thanks for the replies. very useful info.

@Goudy , thanks fo the very detailed response. This is really useful!

I was aware about the limits on the battery life but had heard that they were reasonably straightforward to refurbish (especially here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YuPVC1EEO4 at around 13:10 - they also mention the issue with the water pump), including the possibility of replacing individual cells. 

I was somewhat hoping that the fact that so many Priuses were around doing hard work as minicabs/Ubers (especially around London, where I live), that there would be plenty of "alternative" shops that could service and repair these at a more reasonable price if anything were to go wrong.

Hypothetical question: How much could it cost to repair or replace the battery? Just wondering if there is "wheeler dealer" scenario where I manage to get a deep discount on one (thanks to the tip about the app) and then get the battery fixed/replaced at a reasonable price.

On the water pump, I guess I should ideally look for actual receipts (as per @forgotmyname ) and see that it has been hopefully replaced. Any idea how much it would be to replace otherwise? Also, is this something that gets replaced with cambelt replacements - assuming that these are done at similar intervals as with a "normal" car.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that one of the reasons why this car seemed appealing (notwithstanding it apparently not being such a great drive as @photome suggests) is that it would have the same reliability as all those minicabs/Ubers without actually getting a former minicab/Uber.

Thanks again!

Goudy

With the right care they do mega miles, there's no doubt about that.
For mini cabbers, it's their lively hood so keeping them on the road for all that work is an expensive they expect.
They aren't just thinking about the cars value, but how much it makes them.

A replacement battery, new genuine can be had from a Hybrid specialist for around £1800 to £2000 or so, most will fit it for that.
At a dealer you can double that at the very least.

I think I explained the "refurbish" process. It's far cheaper but the returns are ever decreasing these days.
It's worth considering if the battery fails and you are thinking of shifting it on. Fit a new battery if you want to keep it longer.
You can count on a "refurb" or used being anywhere from £500 to £1000.

The 2ZR-FXE engine is a timing chain. Regular oil changes with the right quality oil is important.
They have been known to suffer a bit of sludging if not kept on top of.

A genuine Toyota/Aisin water pump can be had for around £120- £140 (again double that from a dealer, but a bit cheaper if you buy from one from the many Japanese dealer on certain sites and wait for delivery).

There's no belt or chain driving the water pump. The pump is an electric motor, just the centre than spins has a impeller on it.
It won't normally get changed until it plays up.

I've done a few and it depends on the engine bay. Some are easy to replace from above once the airbox is out of the way (say and hour or so), some you have to go at from under or through the wheel arch (2 hours or so).
There's five bolts if I remember holding it on, just some are underneath and can be hard to get t in room is tight.
Count on around £40 for replacement coolant as well.
I always replace the thermostat at the same time for around £50 to £60, takes a little longer though.

These Toyota/Lexus hybrid systems are pretty robust, but like anything they can go wrong, plus they still have all the other "car" bits that wear and break, so don't just focus on the hybrid bit.

They all share parts so you shouldn't have massive problems there.
Some of the specialists are so so. Sure they know the ins and outs of them but they can bamboozle customers that don't know much about them and hit them with hefty bills. 

If I was to buy one like this myself. Yes I check the car and paperwork carefully and make sure I could budget for the likely problems.
I would also want to do a basic battery health check on it.

chssvl

Thanks! Very useful. Have to say that all those costs seem pretty reasonable. On the water pump (plus thermostat), it almost feels like something that might be worth doing if and when I get the car regardless of what the current owner says. And then, on the battery front, hopefully the app will give a good-enough diagnostic and, depending on what it says, I can then haggle the price accordingly.

photome

chssvl said:

Thanks for the replies. very useful info.

@Goudy , thanks fo the very detailed response. This is really useful!

I was aware about the limits on the battery life but had heard that they were reasonably straightforward to refurbish (especially here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YuPVC1EEO4 at around 13:10 - they also mention the issue with the water pump), including the possibility of replacing individual cells. 

I was somewhat hoping that the fact that so many Priuses were around doing hard work as minicabs/Ubers (especially around London, where I live), that there would be plenty of "alternative" shops that could service and repair these at a more reasonable price if anything were to go wrong.

Hypothetical question: How much could it cost to repair or replace the battery? Just wondering if there is "wheeler dealer" scenario where I manage to get a deep discount on one (thanks to the tip about the app) and then get the battery fixed/replaced at a reasonable price.

On the water pump, I guess I should ideally look for actual receipts (as per @forgotmyname ) and see that it has been hopefully replaced. Any idea how much it would be to replace otherwise? Also, is this something that gets replaced with cambelt replacements - assuming that these are done at similar intervals as with a "normal" car.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that one of the reasons why this car seemed appealing (notwithstanding it apparently not being such a great drive as @photome suggests) is that it would have the same reliability as all those minicabs/Ubers without actually getting a former minicab/Uber.

Thanks again!

You may like the way it drives, I couldnt get comfortable in it and it was slow.  I have nothing against the gearbox as my car being serviced was a Corolla sports tourer and I loved that

not just my opinion either , had a look on Honestjohns reviews, summed up with

Underwhelming ride, handling and performance. Poor infotainment  And scores 3  out of 5

Goudy

photome said:

chssvl said:

Thanks for the replies. very useful info.

@Goudy , thanks fo the very detailed response. This is really useful!

I was aware about the limits on the battery life but had heard that they were reasonably straightforward to refurbish (especially here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YuPVC1EEO4 at around 13:10 - they also mention the issue with the water pump), including the possibility of replacing individual cells. 

I was somewhat hoping that the fact that so many Priuses were around doing hard work as minicabs/Ubers (especially around London, where I live), that there would be plenty of "alternative" shops that could service and repair these at a more reasonable price if anything were to go wrong.

Hypothetical question: How much could it cost to repair or replace the battery? Just wondering if there is "wheeler dealer" scenario where I manage to get a deep discount on one (thanks to the tip about the app) and then get the battery fixed/replaced at a reasonable price.

On the water pump, I guess I should ideally look for actual receipts (as per @forgotmyname ) and see that it has been hopefully replaced. Any idea how much it would be to replace otherwise? Also, is this something that gets replaced with cambelt replacements - assuming that these are done at similar intervals as with a "normal" car.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that one of the reasons why this car seemed appealing (notwithstanding it apparently not being such a great drive as @photome suggests) is that it would have the same reliability as all those minicabs/Ubers without actually getting a former minicab/Uber.

Thanks again!

You may like the way it drives, I couldnt get comfortable in it and it was slow.  I have nothing against the gearbox as my car being serviced was a Corolla sports tourer and I loved that

not just my opinion either , had a look on Honestjohns reviews, summed up with

Underwhelming ride, handling and performance. Poor infotainment  And scores 3  out of 5

The OP is living in London, the speed of travel won't be governed by their the car.

But I know what you mean, that particular Toyota Hybrid system is pretty uninspiring to drive.
Some like that, some don't, most just get used to it though.

I've driven lots, fixed a few and recommended them to family and friends, all of which have gone on to cover some impressive mileages in them with few issues. Most have gone on and bought newer ones and won't consider anything else even though they initially griped about their car to start with. 

The newer Toyota Hybrid system is far far better to drive.
The initial drive from the off no longer goes through the CVT gearbox, it's "first gears" are through a two speeds direct drive from the electric motor.
It's only when it gets up to speed does drive start going through CVT, which is now smaller and lighter as it only handles the taller gearing.

So up to a certain speed, it's a direct electric drive (even though the ICE might fire up to charge the battery).

After that it can still run on electric (with or without the ICE charging the battery) or electric and ICE combined through the CVT gearbox.

The batteries are now Lithium Ion rather then the older cars Nickel Metal Hydride ones.
They are far more energy dense in storage and delivery plus they charge much faster.

Altogether it helps the car stay in electric mode much more than the older versions, plus when the ICE runs to recharge, it doesn't need to run as often or have the same sort of load on it.

facade

If it is spending weeks unused then you really need to look for a charging solution for the 12V battery, this will apply to pretty much anything recent though.

Modern cars are full of power hungry electronics that quickly discharge the 12V battery, and the charging system won't fully recharge it unless you are driving for many hours.

A loss of 1AH a day is typical, 3 weeks will take 50% out of the 12V battery, so unless it is a deep cycle battery it will have a very short life even if you manage to do a 200 mile trip every 3 weeks.

I have to charge our two cars once a fortnight even though they are used for short trips, and it typically takes a good 12 hours on the Accumate.

chssvl

Thanks for the replies. I am indeed aware of the negative reviews of how the car drives but as Goudy says, I rarely get the chance to do any driving that could generate any sort of excitement. I reckon 95% of the driving will be either 20 Mph around London or motorway driving.

I have also driven a few CVT rentals abroad (all Toyotas) and I agree that they don't exactly set the pulse running and can feel a bit weird at times. Having said that, I understand that this specific CVT is probably one of the most reliable "non-manual" gearboxes there are and that is a huge plus for me. We had a 2012 Ford Focus before, which drove very nicely (on the very rare occasions when we took it down a country road), but was eventually struck down by the well-known problem of these powershift gearboxes. It feels that modern auto gearboxes are so complex that there is more that could go wrong. And, while I would live happily with a manual, the Mrs. can only drive an auto.

So, my general thinking on this is, I need a relatively cheap car that can do what will likely be very boring occasional drives and it would be too much of a hassle to spend time an effort fixing faults to do so little driving (reason why it's only two years later that we're thinking about replacing the Focus), hence why reliability trumps all other considerations. And the fact that it is relatively cheap to run (with so little use, fixed costs such as lower tax and discounted parking permits as a result of being a hybrid weigh more heavily) and is relatively well equipped is a very welcome bonus.

@facade, thanks for this. Can I check, with hybrids is there a way one could "unplug" the battery when leaving the car unused for a long period? I think I can generally find an excuse to at least do a drive every couple of weeks, but we always spend a full month away from the UK around this time of the year (actually, not in the UK at the moment) so I might need to do this.