freeholder proposed works - no section 20 or consultaion

blinko

Hi,

I just wanted to ask for some advice. I own a leasehold property and it comes with a car park (seperate title). The freeholder has proposed works of about £18k split between 12 flats so about £1.5k each.

no section 20 notice has been served or consultation, I've just received a quote (dodgy looking like its been made up in word) no company name, or ability to trace the contractor etc freeholder asking for payment. Its a lot of money for what is not a lot of work but this freeholder I suspect making a few quid on the back of it.

just wanted to ask what's the best course of action?

any advice greatly appreciated thanks

DullGreyGuy

What are the works? Are they to deal with an emergency?

blinko

the works are installing a car park gate and various other works attached to it like £1,000 to draw white lines to split up the spaces, £3k to install electrics for the gate (will be electric)  so not an emergency

eddddy

blinko said:

the works are installing a car park gate and various other works attached to it like £1,000 to draw white lines to split up the spaces, £3k to install electrics for the gate (will be electric)  so not an emergency

Firstly, why does your freeholder want to install electric gates?

For example, is it because a group of leaseholders told the freeholder that they would like electric gates?


For example, it would be perfectly valid for the following to happen...

• Some leaseholders say to the freeholder they would like electric gates and white lines in the car park

• So, as a favour to the leaseholders, the freeholder gets a quote - which is £18k

• The freeholder says something like "If the 12 of you all agree to put £1.5k each towards it, I'll get the work done"

• But if one or more leaseholders says "no thanks" - the freeholder cannot force those leaseholders to pay £1.5k

• (But, for example, if only 9 leaseholders are keen, they could pay £2k each to make up the £18k)

If the freeholder wants to be able to 'force' leaseholders to pay £250 or more for a piece of repairs/maintenance work, the freeholder has to do a section 20 consultation.

But assuming you have a 'typical lease'...

...if there are no electric gates at the moment, typically installing electric gates wouldn't be repairs/maintenance. It would be an improvement. So a section 20 consultation wouldn't be valid.

(That's the typical general position, but there are a few caveats as well.)

Brie

I wonder if there are parking issues - i.e. it's close to a rail station and so cheeky people are parking there for the day which is taking up residents' spots.  If this sort of thing is going on and the gates get stopped then it's possible you might end up with a parking company putting up signs and "ticketing" cars they don't recognise even if they are allowed to park there.  

Yorkie1

I can't comment on the s.20 question, but given what you've said about the amateurish nature of the quote, I'd LAO be asking questions to verify whether the design and installation will comply with required safety standards:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/responsibilities.htm
https://www.hse.gov.uk/safetybulletins/revision-standards-powered-doors.htm

Schwarzwald

blinko said:

Hi,

I just wanted to ask for some advice. I own a leasehold property and it comes with a car park (seperate title). The freeholder has proposed works of about £18k split between 12 flats so about £1.5k each.

no section 20 notice has been served or consultation, I've just received a quote (dodgy looking like its been made up in word) no company name, or ability to trace the contractor etc freeholder asking for payment. Its a lot of money for what is not a lot of work but this freeholder I suspect making a few quid on the back of it.

just wanted to ask what's the best course of action?

any advice greatly appreciated thanks

definitely create a paper trail.
state you dont agree with the proposed works.
question the purpose.
ask for more details.
ask how many quotes have been received? for how much and by whom?
state that you disagree with proceeding unless a proper section 20 has been conducted, etc.

blinko

eddddy said:

blinko said:

the works are installing a car park gate and various other works attached to it like £1,000 to draw white lines to split up the spaces, £3k to install electrics for the gate (will be electric)  so not an emergency

Firstly, why does your freeholder want to install electric gates?

For example, is it because a group of leaseholders told the freeholder that they would like electric gates?


For example, it would be perfectly valid for the following to happen...

• Some leaseholders say to the freeholder they would like electric gates and white lines in the car park

• So, as a favour to the leaseholders, the freeholder gets a quote - which is £18k

• The freeholder says something like "If the 12 of you all agree to put £1.5k each towards it, I'll get the work done"

• But if one or more leaseholders says "no thanks" - the freeholder cannot force those leaseholders to pay £1.5k

• (But, for example, if only 9 leaseholders are keen, they could pay £2k each to make up the £18k)

If the freeholder wants to be able to 'force' leaseholders to pay £250 or more for a piece of repairs/maintenance work, the freeholder has to do a section 20 consultation.

But assuming you have a 'typical lease'...

...if there are no electric gates at the moment, typically installing electric gates wouldn't be repairs/maintenance. It would be an improvement. So a section 20 consultation wouldn't be valid.

(That's the typical general position, but there are a few caveats as well.)

Thanks for the reply , there's no electric gates , I'm assuming (I've never used the car park) people are using it that aren't supposed to be (£25k) for an electric gate installation is just wild 

I didn't receive anything, just a quote and told to pay , but I hear your point , but as mentioned it's over £250 so at least S20 should be served . 

https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/electric-gate-installation-prices/

A basic look up probably ours it at £18k for all signing and dancing 

blinko

Brie said:

I wonder if there are parking issues - i.e. it's close to a rail station and so cheeky people are parking there for the day which is taking up residents' spots.  If this sort of thing is going on and the gates get stopped then it's possible you might end up with a parking company putting up signs and "ticketing" cars they don't recognise even if they are allowed to park there.  

Good point , it's very possible people are using OR even dumping at the car parking spaces hence the desire to install electric gate , which I don't disagree if this is the situation I just disagree with £25k (for all flats ) charge and no consultation 

blinko

Schwarzwald said:

blinko said:

Hi,

I just wanted to ask for some advice. I own a leasehold property and it comes with a car park (seperate title). The freeholder has proposed works of about £18k split between 12 flats so about £1.5k each.

no section 20 notice has been served or consultation, I've just received a quote (dodgy looking like its been made up in word) no company name, or ability to trace the contractor etc freeholder asking for payment. Its a lot of money for what is not a lot of work but this freeholder I suspect making a few quid on the back of it.

just wanted to ask what's the best course of action?

any advice greatly appreciated thanks

definitely create a paper trail.
state you dont agree with the proposed works.
question the purpose.
ask for more details.
ask how many quotes have been received? for how much and by whom?
state that you disagree with proceeding unless a proper section 20 has been conducted, etc.

Good points  raised and from  Yorkie1 as well.

The freeholder has stated works have already started , I don't know if this affects things .

Great list , have you been through something like this before ?

Also is it possible the freeholder could take revenge if I stick to my guns about the S20 and start hitting me with fake some bills eg £100 here and there to make up the balance 

eddddy

blinko said:

I didn't receive anything, just a quote and told to pay , but I hear your point , but as mentioned it's over £250 so at least S20 should be served . 

No. Based on what you say, a section 20 consultation probably isn't relevant.

A section 20 consultation is used for works required under the lease.

Installing electric gates wouldn't normally be required by a lease. It's more likely to be purely voluntary.


If that's the case, you could reply with something like...

• No thanks - I'm not interested in paying towards electric gates, or
• I might be interested in paying towards electric gates - but could you get some more quotes please?
• And/or can you give me some more background to the reasons for this?

So you really need to find out the background to this. Who came up with the idea and why?




Just to add - I guess it's possible that the freeholder is claiming that the electric gates are required by the lease. For example, for effective management of the building; for the safety and security of leaseholders, etc.

Which is why you need to find out the background.

In that case, a section 20 consultation would be relevant. And your starting point would be considering the question "Are electric gates really required for effective management of the building; for the safety and security of leaseholders, etc."