PCN issued - but I had paid!

londonerryan

Hi guys, 

Seeing as you guys always offer good advice, this isn't so much a request for help, but more a question of 'what if'. 

I was issued a PCN (received today) for parking in a private carpark exactly two weeks ago. On the night in question, there was a hand-written sign on an adjacent machine/thing (it was covered in a big plastic cover) which said something like, "machine not working, but insert/pull out/repeat card and it will work!". 

So, on the machine that was in use - usual type of parking machine - I inserted my card (nothing happened), pulled it out, inserted, pulled out etc multiple times. In the end, yeah, it did work. I inputted my number plate etc. It gave me a receipt. I put it on my car dashboard.

But now I receive a PCN! 

I didn't take a photo of the 'sign' (a bit foolish) but thankfully I did retain the receipt! So I have proof I paid. 

I suppose my question is this: what if I HADN'T retained the receipt from the machine???

I'm going to go back to the carpark today - not enter it with car - and see if the sign is still there, see what was hidden under the plastic cover (presumably another machine or maybe something unrelated), and I might even ask some of the local businesses if they received PCNs. At least I could vouch for them (??) if they need to make the same argument I will. 

Clearly, if people had paid like I did, but today receive PCNs but DON'T have the receipts as proof (most people don't retain parking receipts for two weeks!) then what comeback do they have? Could this company be reported if this occurs, for example?

I'm thinking I might post this incident in some local Facebook groups in case people need some evidence.

Gr1pr

Name the company ( or council   )  and location 

Post a redacted picture of the NTK PCN too

Coupon-mad

londonerryan said:

Hi guys, 

Seeing as you guys always offer good advice, this isn't so much a request for help, but more a question of 'what if'. 

I was issued a PCN (received today) for parking in a private carpark exactly two weeks ago. On the night in question, there was a hand-written sign on an adjacent machine/thing (it was covered in a big plastic cover) which said something like, "machine not working, but insert/pull out/repeat card and it will work!". 

So, on the machine that was in use - usual type of parking machine - I inserted my card (nothing happened), pulled it out, inserted, pulled out etc multiple times. In the end, yeah, it did work. I inputted my number plate etc. It gave me a receipt. I put it on my car dashboard.

But now I receive a PCN! 

I didn't take a photo of the 'sign' (a bit foolish) but thankfully I did retain the receipt! So I have proof I paid. 

I suppose my question is this: what if I HADN'T retained the receipt from the machine???

I'm going to go back to the carpark today - not enter it with car - and see if the sign is still there, see what was hidden under the plastic cover (presumably another machine or maybe something unrelated), and I might even ask some of the local businesses if they received PCNs. At least I could vouch for them (??) if they need to make the same argument I will. 

Clearly, if people had paid like I did, but today receive PCNs but DON'T have the receipts as proof (most people don't retain parking receipts for two weeks!) then what comeback do they have? Could this company be reported if this occurs, for example?

I'm thinking I might post this incident in some local Facebook groups in case people need some evidence.

But please don't take advice from anyone on Facebook. You will need our advice. The PCN won't be cancelled when you appeal.

You need to read the NEWBIES thread.  I'm assuming you are talking about a private parking charge.  Not a real fine. Is it Excel Parking? If not, who?

londonerryan

Information requested:

Parking company: National Parking Control (NPC) 

I have the receipt of payment of £3.40 in my bank details taken on the night in question and with their company name clear to see. (No photo uploaded).

I don't have a photo of the hand-written sign on the night of the event - possibly just stuck there by a member of the public (I'm assuming it's more likely that a member of NPC's team put it there). I'm going to the carpark in a minute, in the dark, to photo what is there today (thought it more realistic to photo in the dark as those were the conditions on the night in question). 

It seems like an open/shut appeal to me. IF NOT, going by the early reply from @Coupon-mad above - and hence why I asked a 'what if' question rather than support at the beginning - is this not some kind of serious breach of the parking regulations by the parking company??? (Handing out PCNs even after receipt of payment).

This is now the second time this has happened to me since the autumn! I received one from the parking company at my local university (not the same incident which you guys gave me advice about in my previous thread on this forum... which has now been paid and settled) but an earlier incident where I paid for parking yet received TWO PCNs (I ignored the first one) before I emailed them to show them evidence I had paid on the parking app, which they accepted, apologised, and immediately cancelled.

How many other people are receiving PCNs after payment, naively paying, and companies getting away with it? It seems very dodgy. Hence why I suggested I might post this into social media pages to ask if anybody else had the same thing happen to them after payment. 

fisherjim

Do not appeal as driver that NTK does not conform to the POFA if they don't know who the diver is they cannot hold the keeper liable.

There are no "regulations" governing the issue of PCN's don't get sucked in by that, and there are no "open and shut cases" with private parking companies, you were lucky with you other example of a cancellation, this lot will likely as not ignore your evidence thinking they can wear down a ill informed target frightened in to thinking they are a legit authority.

It is quite likely that the terminals were off line and made no log of your input into the system, but the ANPR did, they will just carry on regardless.

Gr1pr

Looking at the evidence, above  it's clear that you paid somebody £3.40, but it does not say who actually received the money 

Handwritten signs could be a scammer,  it's known that false QR codes are sometimes used by them, there are places near old Trafford and the Arena in Manchester with easy money scammers in hi vis vests etc collecting money from fans

NPC are stating that no payment was made to them or possibly their agent wasnt paid  ?

You dont have proof that NPC were paid at the time, plus no picture of any Handwritten sign, seems a good scam ploy to me , I bet that the sign is no longer there

You could have paid the ghost of Christmas past  !

londonerryan

Gr1pr said:

Looking at the evidence, above  it's clear that you paid somebody £3.40, but it does not say who actually received the money 

Handwritten signs could be a scammer,  it's known that false QR codes are sometimes used by them, there are places near old Trafford and the Arena in Manchester with easy money scammers in hi vis vests etc collecting money from fans

NPC are stating that no payment was made to them or possibly their agent wasnt paid  ?

You dont have proof that NPC were paid at the time, plus no picture of any Handwritten sign, seems a good scam ploy to me , I bet that the sign is no longer there

You could have paid the ghost of Christmas past  !

 I went there this evening and took a load of photos which i'll upload once i've sorted through them.

I just wanted to say the £3.40 i paid is in my bank account paid to "NATIONALPARKINGCON" (written like that). 

It didn't look like the machine had been tampered with (not that i would really know anyway), once it did start working, everything looked normal (asked for reg number etc), and i received a receipt and bank evidence.

I'm skipping ahead a lot, but i'm thinking a judge sees this evidence and concludes that member of public did everything he/she believed to be what you do in a carpark and the carpark company are just taking the mick. To not conclude that would be baffling. (Sure, member of public may have been defrauded by a fraudster, but that surely has no relevance here i.e., deliberately not paying for parking). 

Coupon-mad

"NATIONALPARKINGCON" (written like that).

Teehee! Sums up the entire industry IMHO.

londonerryan

These are the photos I took tonight. 

Photo 1: Both pay machines. The one on left which says 'not in service' is the one which had a hand-written sign on saying something like, "Machine is working. Just insert/remove/repeat card a few times". I soon realised the sign relates to the machine on the right (the one 'in use'). For the record, I had a look under the 'not in service' cover and it looks like an old council type pay meter. I think this may have actually been a council carpark a long time ago.

Photo 2: Closeup of the ticket machine. On the night in question, i'm pretty sure where you see the words on the screen, they just kept going off. OR, maybe they were already off. I can't quite recall. All i remember is it wasn't working properly. After inserting and removing card for a minute or so, it seemed to work like it should. 

Photo 3: Two signs re: NPC parking conditions. I edited out the location code.

Photo 4: Bottom sign brighter. 

Photo 5: Bottom sign closeup. 

Photo 6: Top sign closeup.

Photo 7: Side of ticket machine.

londonerryan

I will read the NEWBIES thread better tomorrow (it was a bit much for me a few weeks ago when i was here, but i'll try again). 

In the meantime, i do see a very obvious contradiction, one which i thought may have been the issue here:

On the bottom sign it says: "....must register and pay by phone via Ringgo". 

On the top sign it says: "....must pay at the pay and display machine or via Ringgo". 

Hmm, not very clear. 

fisherjim

You are going all over the place with this, making assumptions and wasting time, I don't know why!