State Pension - Wife was refused her pension because older than husband by 5 months.

Bostonerimus1

It's often difficult, or impossible, for people to understand the consequences of NI decisions they make early on. And once these decisions are made they rarely change them. When I was at university back in the 1980s and did some part time work, I got letters from HMRC asking if I wanted to make voluntary NI payments. I ignored them and lost a pretty inexpensive year of contributions. However, prior to leaving the UK, after I graduated, I read a book for UK expatriates that advised paying voluntary NI while working overseas...so that's what I did and 35 years later I have more than enough NI for a full flat rate pension. However, it would have been very easy for me to miss this and there are many expats who don't do it. There's actually a fair amount of luck involved too in the way legislation changes benefits and the decisions you make not knowing what the future may bring.

LHW99

But they could have still said 'sod that'.

Indeed in theory they could, but many were suffering a form of emotional control that needed a good deal of inner strength to overcome.

I don't disagree with any of the comments, but do feel that your earlier comment that

Note to OP:
the key word is 'opted'.
Your Mum had a choice.

was rather abrupt, despite being quite correct.

Silvertabby

LHW99 said:

But they could have still said 'sod that'.

Indeed in theory they could, but many were suffering a form of emotional control that needed a good deal of inner strength to overcome.

I don't disagree with any of the comments, but do feel that your earlier comment that

Note to OP:
the key word is 'opted'.
Your Mum had a choice.

was rather abrupt, despite being quite correct.

Sorry if I came over as being a bit short, but I've learned over my 22 years in the RAF and 20 years in the LGPS that being blunt is often the only way of getting across to some people.  Waffle and sympathise, and they latch onto the hope that there is a chance that the answer to their question will  be 'yes, you can' when they absolutely can't. 

pinnks

Bostonerimus1 said:

It's often difficult, or impossible, for people to understand the consequences of NI decisions they make early on. And once these decisions are made they rarely change them. When I was at university back in the 1980s and did some part time work, I got letters from HMRC asking if I wanted to make voluntary NI payments. I ignored them and lost a pretty inexpensive year of contributions. However, prior to leaving the UK, after I graduated, I read a book for UK expatriates that advised paying voluntary NI while working overseas...so that's what I did and 35 years later I have more than enough NI for a full flat rate pension. However, it would have been very easy for me to miss this and there are many expats who don't do it. There's actually a fair amount of luck involved too in the way legislation changes benefits and the decisions you make not knowing what the future may bring.

Interesting.  I left the UK in the 1980s and recently (re-)discovered a letter from DWP (as it is now) in response to a letter from my mother querying voluntary NI on my behalf (unbeknown to me) as she was concerned about my future pension, not to mention fleeing the country, lol. 

Whether I knew of that correspondence is lost in the mists of time but I did nothing in response to it, resigning myself to relying on whatever I would get from Germany, which the ill-informed of the day completely over-egged, and treating whatever the UK may give me as extra pocket money.  Changing direction and returning to the UK, it transpired that, at 5 April 2016, I had 31 qualifying years and a hefty COPE, so had I paid 8 or 9 voluntary years in the 1980s it would have been money wasted as my starting amount for the new state pension is based on the old rules. 

I have ended my days with a good Civil Service pension, nearly full UK state pension (£1 short as ran out of time), and a German pension that is 45% of the full UK pension for 8 years working there.  Tax-wise I am content that the German pension is taxed in Germany at about 15% and does not feature in the UK tax world in any shape or form, meaning I win big time on the tax front.

I am content with the decisions I made, with those I didn't know I hadn't made, and with the large dose of luck that worked in my favour (this time).

Pollycat

LHW99 said:

But they could have still said 'sod that'.

Indeed in theory they could, but many were suffering a form of emotional control that needed a good deal of inner strength to overcome.

I don't disagree with any of the comments, but do feel that your earlier comment that

Note to OP:
the key word is 'opted'.
Your Mum had a choice.

was rather abrupt, despite being quite correct.

Actually it was my comment. 
Not the poster you quoted. 

I regret that you feel my comment was rather abrupt
But, as you say, it was correct.

badmemory

Some women of my age actually had their employers assume that they wanted to pay the married womens stamp.  That could feel difficult to go against back then.  Fortunately mine did not.  Our conversation thankfully went more along the lines of we know you have got married but assume you wish to carry on paying full stamp.  If it was happening now I doubt any employer would risk coming down on either side.  I can't remember though.  Did the employers contribution also reduce?

Bostonerimus1

pinnks said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

It's often difficult, or impossible, for people to understand the consequences of NI decisions they make early on. And once these decisions are made they rarely change them. When I was at university back in the 1980s and did some part time work, I got letters from HMRC asking if I wanted to make voluntary NI payments. I ignored them and lost a pretty inexpensive year of contributions. However, prior to leaving the UK, after I graduated, I read a book for UK expatriates that advised paying voluntary NI while working overseas...so that's what I did and 35 years later I have more than enough NI for a full flat rate pension. However, it would have been very easy for me to miss this and there are many expats who don't do it. There's actually a fair amount of luck involved too in the way legislation changes benefits and the decisions you make not knowing what the future may bring.

Interesting.  I left the UK in the 1980s and recently (re-)discovered a letter from DWP (as it is now) in response to a letter from my mother querying voluntary NI on my behalf (unbeknown to me) as she was concerned about my future pension, not to mention fleeing the country, lol. 

Whether I knew of that correspondence is lost in the mists of time but I did nothing in response to it, resigning myself to relying on whatever I would get from Germany, which the ill-informed of the day completely over-egged, and treating whatever the UK may give me as extra pocket money.  Changing direction and returning to the UK, it transpired that, at 5 April 2016, I had 31 qualifying years and a hefty COPE, so had I paid 8 or 9 voluntary years in the 1980s it would have been money wasted as my starting amount for the new state pension is based on the old rules. 

I have ended my days with a good Civil Service pension, nearly full UK state pension (£1 short as ran out of time), and a German pension that is 45% of the full UK pension for 8 years working there.  Tax-wise I am content that the German pension is taxed in Germany at about 15% and does not feature in the UK tax world in any shape or form, meaning I win big time on the tax front.

I am content with the decisions I made, with those I didn't know I hadn't made, and with the large dose of luck that worked in my favour (this time).

Your experience and mine show that's it impossible to know what is the optimal approach. Not paying voluntary NI worked out well for you as you returned to the UK, whereas for me it would have been a bad decision as I never returned to the UK and all my NI record is voluntary. This means that I will get full UK flat rate pension and US Social Security and crucially both will be index linked if I live in the US or UK as UK and US have a Social Security agreement in place, but I had no idea about that 35 years ago so that's another bit of dumb good luck.

SP is complex and there are bound to be some errors and horror stories as the rules are applied to individual circumstances. It is also easy to make a decision or through inaction leave circumstances alone that will negatively impact you in the future, so everyone should try to be as diligent as possible and understand the rules as they currently stand.

SVaz

Women are still doing themselves short by opting out of pensions, even supposedly intelligent Teachers.  My Daughter has many Teacher friends who have opted out,  they can’t see past the difference to their pay slip.  I’m sure my Daughter would like another £500+ a month in her pay but she understands the later consequences, thankfully. 

Bostonerimus1

SVaz said:

Women are still doing themselves short by opting out of pensions, even supposedly intelligent Teachers.  My Daughter has many Teacher friends who have opted out,  they can’t see past the difference to their pay slip.  I’m sure my Daughter would like another £500+ a month in her pay but she understands the later consequences, thankfully. 

There's an argument for opt out if the 500 is placed in a S&S ISA - just not a particularly good argument as you should be using both your pension and ISA tax breaks.

Silvertabby

Bostonerimus1 said:

SVaz said:

Women are still doing themselves short by opting out of pensions, even supposedly intelligent Teachers.  My Daughter has many Teacher friends who have opted out,  they can’t see past the difference to their pay slip.  I’m sure my Daughter would like another £500+ a month in her pay but she understands the later consequences, thankfully. 

There's an argument for opt out if the 500 is placed in a S&S ISA - just not a particularly good argument as you should be using both your pension and ISA tax breaks.

The Teacher's Pension scheme is a public sector defined benefit scheme.  Although pensions are salary related, rather than contribution related,  the high levels of benefits are only possible due to the high level of employer contributions.  In this case, well over £1K per month.  The employer won't contribute to any other pension scheme, so those who opt out forfeit this money.

A S&S ISA would have to go some to beat a fully guaranteed, fully index linked, with spousal benefits, DB scheme.