AVIVA Home Insurance, new FLOOD EXCLUSIONS

Jack199

AVIVA have notified me of the following new exclusions, due upon my January 2025 renewal, which in my view gives them an easy way to refuse a flood claim. I wonder whether others are seeing this type of wording and are concerned by the implications?

“Flood: – Loss or damage caused by rising water table levels (the level below which the ground is completely saturated with water), which happens gradually over a period of time.”

I have written the following to AVIVA.

1. This is poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ you are NOT saying rising water table levels CAUSE Loss/Damage due to flooding, but contribute to the possibility. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording.
3. MOST CONCERNING is the entirely arbitrary phrase “rising water table levels” since it does not define the threshold for the quantity of rising, nor how that value is arrived at (since I presume it would require a physical measure to be taken after a flood event, which may itself have been impacted by a big flood, compared to some point in the past). This seems like a devious way to NEVER pay ANY flood claims, by invoking this vaguely defined exclusion. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. It may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, but customers have no way of knowing because, who knows their property’s water table situation?!

“Storm or flood: – Loss or damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip.”

1. Again, poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ AVIVA means that what is being excluded is Storm or Flood "Loss or damage where PRE-EXISTING Subsidence, Heave" have contributed to the loss/damage when a storm or flood occurred. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording and where, in relation to the insured property, this subsidence/heave would be located for it to be deemed, in AVIVA’s view, an aggravating factor, and what degree of subsidence/heave is considered consequential?
3. Again, following a flood event, which may itself impact the ground situation (ie, subsidence/heave), how will you assess the pre-event ground situation?  PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. Again, it may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, if there is subsidence/heave which customers are unaware of!

Hoenir

Do either of these circumstances directly relate to your property? I have friend with a well in their lounge. They've suffered from water coming up from under the floor twice in the past 5 years. 

DullGreyGuy

Jack199 said:

AVIVA have notified me of the following new exclusions, due upon my January 2025 renewal, which in my view gives them an easy way to refuse a flood claim. I wonder whether others are seeing this type of wording and are concerned by the implications?

“Flood: – Loss or damage caused by rising water table levels (the level below which the ground is completely saturated with water), which happens gradually over a period of time.”

I have written the following to AVIVA.

1. This is poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ you are NOT saying rising water table levels CAUSE Loss/Damage due to flooding, but contribute to the possibility. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording.
3. MOST CONCERNING is the entirely arbitrary phrase “rising water table levels” since it does not define the threshold for the quantity of rising, nor how that value is arrived at (since I presume it would require a physical measure to be taken after a flood event, which may itself have been impacted by a big flood, compared to some point in the past). This seems like a devious way to NEVER pay ANY flood claims, by invoking this vaguely defined exclusion. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. It may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, but customers have no way of knowing because, who knows their property’s water table situation?!

“Storm or flood: – Loss or damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip.”

1. Again, poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ AVIVA means that what is being excluded is Storm or Flood "Loss or damage where PRE-EXISTING Subsidence, Heave" have contributed to the loss/damage when a storm or flood occurred. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording and where, in relation to the insured property, this subsidence/heave would be located for it to be deemed, in AVIVA’s view, an aggravating factor, and what degree of subsidence/heave is considered consequential?
3. Again, following a flood event, which may itself impact the ground situation (ie, subsidence/heave), how will you assess the pre-event ground situation?  PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. Again, it may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, if there is subsidence/heave which customers are unaware of!

Do you have a link to the document online? Or can you post an image of the document (obviously with no personal details showing)?

The tiny snippets have no meaning without seeing them in the context of the whole document. The second one, for example, looks like an exception to the Flood/Storm section to say that you cannot claim that flood caused subsidence. That isn't to say that subsidence is excluded just that it will be considered under the subsidence section rather than the flood section which would mean paying the higher subsidence excess.

Annemos

https://www.aviva.co.uk/insurance/home-products/home-insurance/?source=BX6C&cmp=ppc-hom-prd-bin-bg-ext&&msclkid=0d88ded8f49219ea8a9ab9ba50a38a74&gclid=0d88ded8f49219ea8a9ab9ba50a38a74&gclsrc=3p.ds

Page 17 has those Flood-related exclusions. Policy Wording. (Click on Documents tab.)


I was listening to The Today Program yesterday morning. The Environmental Agency has a new updated listing of Flood and Surface Water risk for postcodes. 

They said it will be available to the general public towards the end of January. 


I also saw this is the Policy above. General Exclusions:  

3. Events before the cover start date anything which happened or circumstances likely to lead to a claim (such as a flood warning being issued for your home) that you were aware of before the cover under this policy started.'

(I am used to seeing this in Travel Insurance, if something is going to happen that we already knew about, eg transport strikes.)

If all the Insurers put this in Home Insurance Policies. (Or is it already there in fact, but with other wording??) Would this mean a homeowner whose policy is due for renewal just before a pre-warned flood or storm event, would be uninsured for the looming event? 

(Does it mean warnings specifically for your home? Your street? If one had had The App Red Alert to ones mobile, would that count?)



Links about the new Update and then the current Postcode one. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/environment-agency-publishes-major-update-to-national-flood-and-coastal-erosion-risk-assessment

https://check-long-term-flood-risk.service.gov.uk/postcode


And news about an acquisition of Direct Line: 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aviva-acquisition-direct-line-cement-105658206.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKnwSDA7haFgw2PZV07zAxXxRr79WZ7mOU3_in_y4L3cDUIvPoh4905_vGY6soxKtCaPd6UAoA-VQJbAlvexetBeU6HctcUpgeUcFHXQcPv0JEan0H2w9cL1f2W15EZH0BfHUhGj5qSen2v-fL3veTSK50figfgyBDNaRzNXpd7x

Jack199

DullGreyGuy said:

Jack199 said:

AVIVA have notified me of the following new exclusions, due upon my January 2025 renewal, which in my view gives them an easy way to refuse a flood claim. I wonder whether others are seeing this type of wording and are concerned by the implications?

“Flood: – Loss or damage caused by rising water table levels (the level below which the ground is completely saturated with water), which happens gradually over a period of time.”

I have written the following to AVIVA.

1. This is poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ you are NOT saying rising water table levels CAUSE Loss/Damage due to flooding, but contribute to the possibility. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording.
3. MOST CONCERNING is the entirely arbitrary phrase “rising water table levels” since it does not define the threshold for the quantity of rising, nor how that value is arrived at (since I presume it would require a physical measure to be taken after a flood event, which may itself have been impacted by a big flood, compared to some point in the past). This seems like a devious way to NEVER pay ANY flood claims, by invoking this vaguely defined exclusion. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. It may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, but customers have no way of knowing because, who knows their property’s water table situation?!

“Storm or flood: – Loss or damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip.”

1. Again, poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ AVIVA means that what is being excluded is Storm or Flood "Loss or damage where PRE-EXISTING Subsidence, Heave" have contributed to the loss/damage when a storm or flood occurred. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording and where, in relation to the insured property, this subsidence/heave would be located for it to be deemed, in AVIVA’s view, an aggravating factor, and what degree of subsidence/heave is considered consequential?
3. Again, following a flood event, which may itself impact the ground situation (ie, subsidence/heave), how will you assess the pre-event ground situation?  PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. Again, it may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, if there is subsidence/heave which customers are unaware of!

Do you have a link to the document online? Or can you post an image of the document (obviously with no personal details showing)?

The tiny snippets have no meaning without seeing them in the context of the whole document. The second one, for example, looks like an exception to the Flood/Storm section to say that you cannot claim that flood caused subsidence. That isn't to say that subsidence is excluded just that it will be considered under the subsidence section rather than the flood section which would mean paying the higher subsidence excess.

Here is an image of page 17 of the Policy Document.

Jack199

Hoenir said:

Do either of these circumstances directly relate to your property? I have friend with a well in their lounge. They've suffered from water coming up from under the floor twice in the past 5 years. 

No, neither of these circumstances relates to my property. But the wording is, IMO, so loosely worded that, with flooding becoming more common, I am no longer clear what cover is being offered to me.

DullGreyGuy

Jack199 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Jack199 said:

AVIVA have notified me of the following new exclusions, due upon my January 2025 renewal, which in my view gives them an easy way to refuse a flood claim. I wonder whether others are seeing this type of wording and are concerned by the implications?

“Flood: – Loss or damage caused by rising water table levels (the level below which the ground is completely saturated with water), which happens gradually over a period of time.”

I have written the following to AVIVA.

1. This is poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ you are NOT saying rising water table levels CAUSE Loss/Damage due to flooding, but contribute to the possibility. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording.
3. MOST CONCERNING is the entirely arbitrary phrase “rising water table levels” since it does not define the threshold for the quantity of rising, nor how that value is arrived at (since I presume it would require a physical measure to be taken after a flood event, which may itself have been impacted by a big flood, compared to some point in the past). This seems like a devious way to NEVER pay ANY flood claims, by invoking this vaguely defined exclusion. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. It may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, but customers have no way of knowing because, who knows their property’s water table situation?!

“Storm or flood: – Loss or damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip.”

1. Again, poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ AVIVA means that what is being excluded is Storm or Flood "Loss or damage where PRE-EXISTING Subsidence, Heave" have contributed to the loss/damage when a storm or flood occurred. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording and where, in relation to the insured property, this subsidence/heave would be located for it to be deemed, in AVIVA’s view, an aggravating factor, and what degree of subsidence/heave is considered consequential?
3. Again, following a flood event, which may itself impact the ground situation (ie, subsidence/heave), how will you assess the pre-event ground situation?  PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. Again, it may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, if there is subsidence/heave which customers are unaware of!

Do you have a link to the document online? Or can you post an image of the document (obviously with no personal details showing)?

The tiny snippets have no meaning without seeing them in the context of the whole document. The second one, for example, looks like an exception to the Flood/Storm section to say that you cannot claim that flood caused subsidence. That isn't to say that subsidence is excluded just that it will be considered under the subsidence section rather than the flood section which would mean paying the higher subsidence excess.

Here is an image of page 17 of the Policy Document.

So Insurance policy wording (PDF 348 KB)

If we take the second one first... this is a section level exclusion. If there is very heavy rain etc and it causes a landslide that goes into the side of your house and damages it. What this clause is saying is that you cannot claim for the damage under the Storm/Flood section of the policy despite that arguably being the proximal cause. Instead you would need to claim for the damage under the Subsidence, Heave and Landslip section of the policy which typically will have a higher excess than the the Storm and Flood sections. 


It is common for Home Insurance to exclude rising water table, it's a long term problem with no easy fix. The fact they have had gradually to it actually makes it potentially easier to get a claim through as a one off storm causing the water to raise from the ground won't typically be considered gradual. 

Source of the water is typically found by testing for nitrates, surface water flooding will typically be low to none whereas water that have come up out the ground it will be much higher.

Jack199

DullGreyGuy said:

Jack199 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Jack199 said:

AVIVA have notified me of the following new exclusions, due upon my January 2025 renewal, which in my view gives them an easy way to refuse a flood claim. I wonder whether others are seeing this type of wording and are concerned by the implications?

“Flood: – Loss or damage caused by rising water table levels (the level below which the ground is completely saturated with water), which happens gradually over a period of time.”

I have written the following to AVIVA.

1. This is poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ you are NOT saying rising water table levels CAUSE Loss/Damage due to flooding, but contribute to the possibility. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording.
3. MOST CONCERNING is the entirely arbitrary phrase “rising water table levels” since it does not define the threshold for the quantity of rising, nor how that value is arrived at (since I presume it would require a physical measure to be taken after a flood event, which may itself have been impacted by a big flood, compared to some point in the past). This seems like a devious way to NEVER pay ANY flood claims, by invoking this vaguely defined exclusion. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. It may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, but customers have no way of knowing because, who knows their property’s water table situation?!

“Storm or flood: – Loss or damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip.”

1. Again, poorly worded.
2. I ‘believe’ AVIVA means that what is being excluded is Storm or Flood "Loss or damage where PRE-EXISTING Subsidence, Heave" have contributed to the loss/damage when a storm or flood occurred. PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CLEARLY what you mean by this wording and where, in relation to the insured property, this subsidence/heave would be located for it to be deemed, in AVIVA’s view, an aggravating factor, and what degree of subsidence/heave is considered consequential?
3. Again, following a flood event, which may itself impact the ground situation (ie, subsidence/heave), how will you assess the pre-event ground situation?  PLEASE EXPLAIN THE METHODOLOGY AVIVA will use if a flood event occurs.
4. Again, it may even be that customers are already in a position where AVIVA will never pay out for flooding, if there is subsidence/heave which customers are unaware of!

Do you have a link to the document online? Or can you post an image of the document (obviously with no personal details showing)?

The tiny snippets have no meaning without seeing them in the context of the whole document. The second one, for example, looks like an exception to the Flood/Storm section to say that you cannot claim that flood caused subsidence. That isn't to say that subsidence is excluded just that it will be considered under the subsidence section rather than the flood section which would mean paying the higher subsidence excess.

Here is an image of page 17 of the Policy Document.

So Insurance policy wording (PDF 348 KB)

If we take the second one first... this is a section level exclusion. If there is very heavy rain etc and it causes a landslide that goes into the side of your house and damages it. What this clause is saying is that you cannot claim for the damage under the Storm/Flood section of the policy despite that arguably being the proximal cause. Instead you would need to claim for the damage under the Subsidence, Heave and Landslip section of the policy which typically will have a higher excess than the the Storm and Flood sections. 


It is common for Home Insurance to exclude rising water table, it's a long term problem with no easy fix. The fact they have had gradually to it actually makes it potentially easier to get a claim through as a one off storm causing the water to raise from the ground won't typically be considered gradual. 

Source of the water is typically found by testing for nitrates, surface water flooding will typically be low to none whereas water that have come up out the ground it will be much higher.

Thanks for your very helpful reply.

The definitions section of AVIVA’s policy book states “Flood - A substantial volume of water suddenly entering your Buildings from an external source at ground floor level or below.”
The Buildings section (p15) states cover is provided for damage caused by “Storm or Flood” and by “Subsidence, heave, or landslip”.
The new exclusion which we are discussing: Under “Storm or Flood:
- Loss or damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip
- Loss or damage caused by rising water table levels (the level below which the ground is completely saturated with water), which happens gradually over a period of time.”

One can sustain damage separately from any of these 5 causes. However, now Storm and Flood have been connected to subsidence, heave and landslip, but why is subsidence cover excluded in relation to “water suddenly entering your Buildings from an external source”, ie a Flood? I understand that the subsidence, heave, or landslip are still separately covered, but now, under this new exclusion, 2 events are being linked, leaving me unclear as to the methodology AVIVA will use to determine whether cover will be denied.

Regarding rising water table, your suggestion about new flood defences and the designation of land for flood plain is a scenario which makes sense, but AVIVA’s wording is a world away from this, and unhelpfully vague, allowing them to interpret their words as they choose. Just one of several holes in this wording is “where?” – ie flood cover is excluded if there is “rising water table levels” (a) under my property?, (b) 1 mile away?, (c) 10 miles away?,… who knows what AVIVA means? (I know water finds its own level, but some properties may be on an elevated position such that a rising water table is still far below the property). This exclusion is full of definitional holes and I believe is wide open to misuse!

The big issue for me is that this new wording is having to be interpreted by customers, when its meaning should be made abundantly clear by the vendor. I really need to receive AVIVA’s official statement, if they will provide one. I have written to them.

Annemos

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/case-studies/consumer-complains-his-insurer-wont-pay-to-repair-water-damage

The Ombudsman has an example above. This customer won the Complaint, because although the damage was deemed to be gradual, there was no definition of a flood in the Policy. And he reported it as soon as he saw it. 

The Insurance Company had looked at whether there had been enough rainfall to cause a flood. Or whether there was a leaking pipe. 



But then with this person below. There HAD been a lot of rain. But the Loss Adjuster declined the claim. I don't know what eventually happened for this Poster.


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5485654/groundwater-flooding-home-insurance




Assuming we can work out what qualifies as rising groundwater.... then I think we have the following:  (But I would not put my life on it! Maybe others will disagree. Also see the case I am attaching in the next Post: DRN-2632381. In that one there was persistent heavy rain over a period. And the homeowner lost the case. ) 


1     A sudden event like a flood after a heavy rainfall. The Building does not subside (foundation under the building has NOT dropped causing cracking), then the Flood Excess will apply to the Claim.    (They will be looking for a sudden rain event or a dam burst??) 

2     A sudden event like a flood after a heavy rainfall. The Building does subside (foundation under the building has dropped and caused cracking), then the Subsidence Excess will apply to the whole claim.

3   Gradual event: water is seeping up over time. No particular heavy rain event happened. No Subsidence has been caused. No claim to be paid out. 

4  Gradual event: water is seeping up over time.  No particular heavy rain event.  But the building does subside. Any damage caused by the actual building subsiding     (wall and floor cracking, as opposed to wet damaged things)      would be repaired under the Subsidence Section.  (Note Gradual damage is allowed for Subsidence.)  

(And under Subsidence claims, there are several FOS cases that say, if extra work has to be done in order for the repairs to be lasting and effective, then the Insurance Company has to do them. So maybe that could include tanking if that was required for the actual Subsidence repairs to be lasting and effective. I am not a Builder, so don't know.)

Annemos

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions/search?Keyword=flood+groundwater&IndustrySectorID%5B3%5D=3&Sort=relevance

A search under flood groundwater...... 42 cases.


For example

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN9022450.pdf


https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-3219788.pdf




Just when you think you have understood things.... this one says this 

"I accept that heavy rain did contribute to the flooding of S’s basement. The water table goes up and down depending on the season and the amount of rain or snow. There is a direct link. But this doesn’t change the fact that RSA didn’t offer S cover for this risk under the policy. So regardless of the causal link, unfortunately for S, it isn’t covered for this claim."

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-2632381.pdf

Annemos

Last thing

Jack199. I had no idea about the different types of flood. 

Thank you for raising it. 

I have found this site, too. 

I am starting to get the impression that there is a distinction between Surface Water Flooding and Groundwater Flooding. Now I understand why those Environmental Agency Postcode maps give a distinction between the two types. 

This site also says:  

"The distinction between surface water flooding and groundwater flooding is rarely clear. Increased infiltration and a rise in the water table may result in more water flowing into rivers which may then be more likely to break their banks. A rise in the water table during periods of higher than normal rainfall may mean that land drainage networks, such as storm sewers, don’t work properly if groundwater is flowing into them underground. This may affect their ability to get rid of surface water which then causes flooding."

http://www.groundwateruk.org/faq_groundwater_flooding.aspx