EON meter - no gas supply - unique circumstances

TheOnlyKowalksi

I've lived in my social housing flat 4 years. I only use electricity but there’s an old disconnected (since 2015) gas meter.  I've never thought twice about it apart from that it takes up space and assumed as it’s a tower block that the gas had been disconnected as a lot of high rises had done for safety ( found out since it hasn’t).

About 2 years into my tenancy I started getting letters from EON to ‘The Occupier’ for a standing charge and an estimated (v. small) gas use. I ignored them as I don't have a contract with EON and I don't have a gas supply. IThree months ago two shaved monkeys came to my door from EON Debt Field thingy telling me money was due, wanting to see my meter (I said no as it’s at the back of a very stuffed cupboard) and then asking to see how I heat my water (I said no, they can just take my word for it). They said cos I have a meter but no supply I should pay a standing charge for it which. They also said I could have it removed.

Did some research and found that EON bought stock from Npower a few years ago and this must be the point at which they started billing me (never had a bill from Npower). I emailed EON without giving my name a few days after the visit to see my options for having the meter removed (£150!) then my Dad died 3 weeks later so I’ve been dealing with that for the past few months.

I have no intention of paying the accumulated standing charges they’ve been billing ‘The Occupier’ for the past two years. My argument is that they started billing my address with no explanation of why. Imagine suddenly receiving ‘hire’ bills from your neighbour cos they lent your previous neighbour a lawnmower years ago that wasn’t returned and has just been taking up space in your shed after you’ve had the lawn paved over… and then charging you for coming to collect it…. 

I genuinely thought they had made a mistake and as it wasn’t addressed to me by name I wasn’t concerned. A key point in my argument is that their bills to me have all been based on implied knowledge; knowledge I didn’t have, and had they explicitly explained with a courtesy letter why they were billing me when they started I could have arranged for the meter to be removed and not had the standing charges accumulating.

They don’t currently have my name and I think I’m currently protected by GDPR form them getting it from the council or Electoral Register unless things go legal. They have now asked for my name/DOB/tel no as the ‘Occupier’ account needs to be in my name to get the meter removed. Im reluctant to give any ‘real’ info in case they try to enforce the accumulated standing charges.

Anyone know my legal stance on not paying the accumulated charges based on the info above?  Have I got a good argument? Is it a dumb move to give a name that’s not my ‘legal’ name. And do they check? And who with? Any pointers as to how to deal with this dressed up legitimised theft?

marcia_

TheOnlyKowalksi said:

I've lived in my social housing flat 4 years. I only use electricity but there’s an old disconnected (since 2015) gas meter.  I've never thought twice about it apart from that it takes up space and assumed as it’s a tower block that the gas had been disconnected as a lot of high rises had done for safety ( found out since it hasn’t).

About 2 years into my tenancy I started getting letters from EON to ‘The Occupier’ for a standing charge and an estimated (v. small) gas use. I ignored them as I don't have a contract with EON and I don't have a gas supply. IThree months ago two shaved monkeys came to my door from EON Debt Field thingy telling me money was due, wanting to see my meter (I said no as it’s at the back of a very stuffed cupboard) and then asking to see how I heat my water (I said no, they can just take my word for it). They said cos I have a meter but no supply I should pay a standing charge for it which. They also said I could have it removed.

Did some research and found that EON bought stock from Npower a few years ago and this must be the point at which they started billing me (never had a bill from Npower). I emailed EON without giving my name a few days after the visit to see my options for having the meter removed (£150!) then my Dad died 3 weeks later so I’ve been dealing with that for the past few months.

I have no intention of paying the accumulated standing charges they’ve been billing ‘The Occupier’ for the past two years. My argument is that they started billing my address with no explanation of why. Imagine suddenly receiving ‘hire’ bills from your neighbour cos they lent your previous neighbour a lawnmower years ago that wasn’t returned and has just been taking up space in your shed after you’ve had the lawn paved over… and then charging you for coming to collect it…. 

I genuinely thought they had made a mistake and as it wasn’t addressed to me by name I wasn’t concerned. A key point in my argument is that their bills to me have all been based on implied knowledge; knowledge I didn’t have, and had they explicitly explained with a courtesy letter why they were billing me when they started I could have arranged for the meter to be removed and not had the standing charges accumulating.

They don’t currently have my name and I think I’m currently protected by GDPR form them getting it from the council or Electoral Register unless things go legal. They have now asked for my name/DOB/tel no as the ‘Occupier’ account needs to be in my name to get the meter removed. Im reluctant to give any ‘real’ info in case they try to enforce the accumulated standing charges.

Anyone know my legal stance on not paying the accumulated charges based on the info above?  Have I got a good argument? Is it a dumb move to give a name that’s not my ‘legal’ name. And do they check? And who with? Any pointers as to how to deal with this dressed up legitimised theft?

 Why didn't you show them the disconnected meter? You problem would have probably gone away. 

bryanb

So the “Old disconnected” meter is not disconnected?

mmmmikey

If the meter is still there and hasn't been removed then according to the rules there is still a standing charge to pay. Like it or not, that's the way it is. If you had co-operated with EON then you may have been able to persuade them to waive the charges as a good will gesture but there's probably very little chance of that now.

Meter bypassing is theft and not uncommon and what you've done will have made you look suspicious. Anything you do to avoid paying what is due is going to make that worse. The harder you try to avoid paying the more likely they are to pursue you.

If you allow your emotions to get the better of you then there's every possibility you'll end up with having to deal with this through the courts and from what you've said you'll likely end up losing.

Your only sensible option is to be open and honest with EON and co-operate with them. It's still worth asking them nicely if they'll waive the charges but if you adopt the same tone with them there's not much chance of success. If you're going to struggle to pay them what you owe them (however unfair you think it is) then you need to arrange to pay off the debt gradually and as long as you co-operate they'll almost certainly agree to that.

Going forward if you want to avoid paying the standing charges there is the option to have the meter removed but you'd need to discuss this with your landlord as it is expensive to have it reconnected.

QrizB

I agree with the above.

When you moved in, your landlord (or housing association etc.) should have given you the opening readings for your energy meters, including the gas meter, so you could sign up with a supplier. Did they include the gas meter when they did this?

If they didn't, you might be able to complain to them and they might be willing to make a contribution.

Scot_39

Whilst I can well understand the frustrations of dealing with customer services at some suppliers, its possible you really need to try step outside your uncooperative / ignore it mind set - and prepare to engage with your "supplier" before this escalates.

Letters to "The Occupier" are a direct result of you failing to register your name with the so called deemed (i.e. past occupant / landlords chosen supplier).  Some HA will seek permission and do this for you automatically.

And I would guess potentially increasingly urgent to do so - proper advice - say from likes of citizens advice or an energy debt charity / council - on how to deal with this.

Because right now your failure to engage - including the more recent refused access - will not be being looked upon kindly by your "deemed" gas supplier (probably NPower - see this notice regarding the domestic and SME customer move to EOn Next)

https://www.eonnext.com/npower-information

Questions like is it a dumb idea to lie about identity - when bailiffs can probably (almost definitely) and courts definitely can access your identity - one such worrying example - only likely if anything to get you in even deeper trouble. 

 

We see many posts from people who think they are in the right - but many can do themselves real harm - both financially (additional significant costs when debt is small and in limit CCJs impacting future credit access for years) - and potentially medically as things like debt escalate to stressful situations.

As right now - worst case - you are heading - now as I above possibly more imminently after refusing entry - to potential court action - to at least gain meter access and potentially the knock on to pursue the demanded debt - which will only add to demanded payments.

For instance - one user posted their online (so supposedly quicker / cheaper) court debt proceedings notice recently - over and above the initial debt - it included a £205 court fee and legal fee of £80 - just for filling the application.  £285 probably around 3 years gas SC.

Once that notice is raised - it is non refundable - someone pays - you if judged liable in the end for the debt.

There have - have as in past at least - been ways around paying standing charges at some suppliers - as some would voluntarily wave the fees if a genuine non user - especially for say vulnerable / poor and tennants rather than owners etc.  But some have also started charging again - due to the increased external costs - they themselves have to pay.

You might even be right - that if you never used the supply and never registered - so never needed a contrtact etc - which I have seen albeit only 1 user argue here - but I am not sure of the law.  Hence the you need real advice.

Continuing on your current non cooperative path - is not going to resolve this issue - well possibly not in your own best interest anyway.

So please talk to a debt charity or citizens advice - or in many areas - even councils have had advisors to help their tennants.  And work with them and the supplier to resolve this.

Ectophile

mmmmikey said:

If the meter is still there and hasn't been removed then according to the rules there is still a standing charge to pay. Like it or not, that's the way it is. If you had co-operated with EON then you may have been able to persuade them to waive the charges as a good will gesture but there's probably very little chance of that now.

It's not that simple.

The Gas Act 1986, Schedule 2B, Section 8 covers deemed contracts.  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/en/ukpga/1986/44/schedule/2B 

The wording of that section isn't great.  Everybody seems to have different opinions on exactly what it means.  And nobody on this forum has ever found any relevant case law.

My belief mathes the published opinion of Ofgem, which is that if the customer has never used any gas at all, then they cannot be a deemed customer of the supplier.  So there can be no standing charges.

Scot_39

Ectophile said:

mmmmikey said:

If the meter is still there and hasn't been removed then according to the rules there is still a standing charge to pay. Like it or not, that's the way it is. If you had co-operated with EON then you may have been able to persuade them to waive the charges as a good will gesture but there's probably very little chance of that now.

It's not that simple.

The Gas Act 1986, Schedule 2B, Section 8 covers deemed contracts.  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/en/ukpga/1986/44/schedule/2B 

The wording of that section isn't great.  Everybody seems to have different opinions on exactly what it means.  And nobody on this forum has ever found any relevant case law.

My belief mathes the published opinion of Ofgem, which is that if the customer has never used any gas at all, then they cannot be a deemed customer of the supplier.  So there can be no standing charges.

Thanks - I knew someone had posted on it before.

But the OP hasn't said if meter his or hasn't registered - only that being billed for a small estimated usage.  

So needs to check day 1 and currrent - may not apply - but it's certainly interesting.

Even eaasier perhaps to prove - if the OP may in fact have no gas appliances installed - again hasn't said.

TheOnlyKowalksi

Scot_39 said:

Ectophile said:

mmmmikey said:

If the meter is still there and hasn't been removed then according to the rules there is still a standing charge to pay. Like it or not, that's the way it is. If you had co-operated with EON then you may have been able to persuade them to waive the charges as a good will gesture but there's probably very little chance of that now.

It's not that simple.

The Gas Act 1986, Schedule 2B, Section 8 covers deemed contracts.  (link removed as wouldnt let me post with link!)

The wording of that section isn't great.  Everybody seems to have different opinions on exactly what it means.  And nobody on this forum has ever found any relevant case law.

My belief mathes the published opinion of Ofgem, which is that if the customer has never used any gas at all, then they cannot be a deemed customer of the supplier.  So there can be no standing charges.

Thanks - I knew someone had posted on it before.

But the OP hasn't said if meter his or hasn't registered - only that being billed for a small estimated usage.  

So needs to check day 1 and currrent - may not apply - but it's certainly interesting.

Even eaasier perhaps to prove - if the OP may in fact have no gas appliances installed - again hasn't said.

Hi, OP here. The only gas related thing in the whole flat is the capped meter. I've no contract with them but did tell them my name today to arrange getting meter removed (Council have said it's my responsibility). Meter is 00000000

t0rt0ise

QrizB said:

I agree with the above.

When you moved in, your landlord (or housing association etc.) should have given you the opening readings for your energy meters, including the gas meter, so you could sign up with a supplier. Did they include the gas meter when they did this?

If they didn't, you might be able to complain to them and they might be willing to make a contribution.

I've lived in several council and Housing Association properties and have never had any opening readings from them. It's always been my responsibility to find out who the current suppliers are, read the meter and open accounts. So I fear your advice is not useful.

Scot_39

TheOnlyKowalksi said:

Scot_39 said:

Ectophile said:

mmmmikey said:

If the meter is still there and hasn't been removed then according to the rules there is still a standing charge to pay. Like it or not, that's the way it is. If you had co-operated with EON then you may have been able to persuade them to waive the charges as a good will gesture but there's probably very little chance of that now.

It's not that simple.

The Gas Act 1986, Schedule 2B, Section 8 covers deemed contracts.  (link removed as wouldnt let me post with link!)

The wording of that section isn't great.  Everybody seems to have different opinions on exactly what it means.  And nobody on this forum has ever found any relevant case law.

My belief mathes the published opinion of Ofgem, which is that if the customer has never used any gas at all, then they cannot be a deemed customer of the supplier.  So there can be no standing charges.

Thanks - I knew someone had posted on it before.

But the OP hasn't said if meter his or hasn't registered - only that being billed for a small estimated usage.  

So needs to check day 1 and currrent - may not apply - but it's certainly interesting.

Even eaasier perhaps to prove - if the OP may in fact have no gas appliances installed - again hasn't said.

Hi, OP here. The only gas related thing in the whole flat is the capped meter. I've no contract with them but did tell them my name today to arrange getting meter removed (Council have said it's my responsibility). Meter is 00000000

So the meter has been capped - and reading 0 - and you have no gas appliances - I must have missed such key facts in your first post.

And given your lack of engagement with EOn and refusing them access - it's not unreasonable to assume they might be operating equally in the dark.

Although if gas was capped by npower - you would have perhaps hoped that info might have survived the takeover.

If it was me - I'd drop them a letter - or email - with those key facts.