Tyneside Flat Title Deeds Not Correct Solicitor not letting sale go through

Iiyama

Background
Son buying ground floor flat. His solicitor several months ago said that the title deeds are in the wrong format and it could take a long time to sort out. Son wanted to continue so his solicitor contacted the sellers solicitor. We thought all parties were working together to resolve this including the owner of the flat above to have the deeds changed to the correct format.

We have learnt that the deeds and or leasehold for the tyneside flat upstairs have gone missing. Son's solicitor thinks the purchase shouldnt go ahead. 

Seller offered to put £5,000 into solicitor to hold for my son to sort out the deeds etc once he has purchased the flat. The amount is generous as the cost to sort is thought to be under £1,000. Its the time it could take to sort out can run into many months or years. Seller wants the sale sorted as he is emigrating.

My googling appears to suggest that in old Tyneside flats the deeds/freehold can go missing and indemnity insurance is taken out by the seller to cover this.

Sons solicitor continues to strongly suggest he pulls out.

Any thoughts from those more knowlagable than i?

EssexHebridean

Your son has a choice - take his solicitor's advice, or go against that advice. If he opts to go against it, the solicitor will almost certainly demand that he signs a disclaimer confirming that he is going ahead against their advice, so he needs to be clear that there will be no recourse when the issue comes back to bite him in the future. 

Is your son getting a mortgage? If he is, then the lender will veto it anyway so the question will become irrelevant. 

HobgoblinBT

There are two options.
1.  Follow the advice of a paid professional (sons solicitor) who has likely dealt with such cases or knows about similar cases and any potential pitfalls
2.  Rely on the online advice (this forum) which is a bit like an online version of getting advice of mates down the pub.

No offence to my mates down the pub, but in a financial or property transaction I know whose advice I would follow.

Iiyama

EssexHebridean said:

Your son has a choice - take his solicitor's advice, or go against that advice. If he opts to go against it, the solicitor will almost certainly demand that he signs a disclaimer confirming that he is going ahead against their advice, so he needs to be clear that there will be no recourse when the issue comes back to bite him in the future. 

Is your son getting a mortgage? If he is, then the lender will veto it anyway so the question will become irrelevant. 

Thanks for responding. Yes, he is getting a mortgage and already has it in principle.

user1977

Iiyama said:

EssexHebridean said:

Your son has a choice - take his solicitor's advice, or go against that advice. If he opts to go against it, the solicitor will almost certainly demand that he signs a disclaimer confirming that he is going ahead against their advice, so he needs to be clear that there will be no recourse when the issue comes back to bite him in the future. 

Is your son getting a mortgage? If he is, then the lender will veto it anyway so the question will become irrelevant. 

Yes, he is getting a mortgage and already has it in principle.

Which (for the avoidance of doubt) does not mean the lender is satisfied with the title - that's left to the solicitors to report on.

Iiyama

HobgoblinBT said:

There are two options.
1.  Follow the advice of a paid professional (sons solicitor) who has likely dealt with such cases or knows about similar cases and any potential pitfalls
2.  Rely on the online advice (this forum) which is a bit like an online version of getting advice of mates down the pub.

No offence to my mates down the pub, but in a financial or property transaction I know whose advice I would follow.

Yes, I get that. However, the sellers solicitor is saying that it can go ahead and wont cause a problem. So a couple of conflicting messages.

I think its can be helpful to get the views of others in particular in an area outside my understanding.

eddddy

The only comment I would add...

As you probably know, Tyneside Leases (or Criss Cross leases) are 'strange'. They don't tend to exist anywhere else in the country, apart from Tyneside.

So is your son's solicitor in the Tyneside area and familiar with Tyneside leases?

I've heard anecdotes about solicitors in other parts of the country, who have never dealt with Tyneside leases before, and so they are nervous about them, and therefore a bit over-keen to tell clients to walk away.



(As an aside, I've also heard people recommend that the 2 flat owners should cooperate to end the Tyneside Lease set-up, and convert it to a more modern 'Shared Freehold' set-up. But that might be more difficult if one of the title deeds is missing.)

EssexHebridean

Iiyama said:

HobgoblinBT said:

There are two options.
1.  Follow the advice of a paid professional (sons solicitor) who has likely dealt with such cases or knows about similar cases and any potential pitfalls
2.  Rely on the online advice (this forum) which is a bit like an online version of getting advice of mates down the pub.

No offence to my mates down the pub, but in a financial or property transaction I know whose advice I would follow.

Yes, I get that. However, the sellers solicitor is saying that it can go ahead and wont cause a problem. So a couple of conflicting messages.

I think its can be helpful to get the views of others in particular in an area outside my understanding.

The seller's solicitor is acting for the seller, not for your son, or for his lender. They aren't particularly bothered about the best interests of your son - or indeed his lender.

Your son's solicitor, meanwhile, IS looking out for the best interests of both his client, and the lender, for who he is also presumably acting?

If the lender isn't happy, then your son's view (and indeed yours) becomes irrelevant - as his mortgage offer will be pulled. 

Jude57

eddddy said:

The only comment I would add...

As you probably know, Tyneside Leases (or Criss Cross leases) are 'strange'. They don't tend to exist anywhere else in the country, apart from Tyneside.

So is your son's solicitor in the Tyneside area and familiar with Tyneside leases?

I've heard anecdotes about solicitors in other parts of the country, who have never dealt with Tyneside leases before, and so they are nervous about them, and therefore a bit over-keen to tell clients to walk away.



(As an aside, I've also heard people recommend that the 2 flat owners should cooperate to end the Tyneside Lease set-up, and convert it to a more modern 'Shared Freehold' set-up. But that might be more difficult if one of the title deeds is missing.)

I agree entirely. Early in my career I worked in conveyancing in Newcastle and was very familiar with leases for Tyneside flats. I even owned one, once. I, too, wonder whether the solicitor for the OP is unfamiliar with these leases. It's very unlikely that the property in question is unregistered with HM Land Registry because registration has been compulsory for decades. If the property is registered then the key clauses of the lease will be detailed in the Land Registry copies, surely? In any event, It's really not difficult to wind back to the last purchase and see whether the 'missing' documentation was available then, or even to the transaction before that. There could even be photocopies on file in previous solicitors archived records although there may be a cost involved in retrieval because the previous solicitor (or their staff) will have to go looking for the old file and that will take time.

EssexHebridean

eddddy said:

The only comment I would add...

As you probably know, Tyneside Leases (or Criss Cross leases) are 'strange'. They don't tend to exist anywhere else in the country, apart from Tyneside.

So is your son's solicitor in the Tyneside area and familiar with Tyneside leases?

I've heard anecdotes about solicitors in other parts of the country, who have never dealt with Tyneside leases before, and so they are nervous about them, and therefore a bit over-keen to tell clients to walk away.



(As an aside, I've also heard people recommend that the 2 flat owners should cooperate to end the Tyneside Lease set-up, and convert it to a more modern 'Shared Freehold' set-up. But that might be more difficult if one of the title deeds is missing.)

I'm going to hazard a guess that is what the "the title is in wrong format" thing is about. Ultimately I suspect it is going to come down to the lender's take on the matter though. 

Iiyama

All helpful replies. I'm hoping to speak to my sons solicitor tomorrow for an update on his behalf. This discussion and opinions are all useful.

Son's solicitor is in the Tyneside area.  Interestingly the sellers solicitor has said that they are not sure my son's solicitor understands Tyneside flats! We shall see.