Water leak in share of freehold flat - who is responsible?

thenap80

I have a tenanted flat. The bock of flats is Share Of Freehold. 
My tenant has a leak coming in from above. Managing agent for block told me to investigate myself with plumber. Plumber predicts it is to do with intenal pipes. Although tenant thinks it has something to do with rainwater as leak has coincided with heavy rain twice. 
I have contacted the managing agent as I woud have thought they have a responsibility to help getting this fixed. We pay a service charge and there will be building insurance surely that they have. Am I wrong? Who is in  charge of repair?

In any case, the managing agent are not responding to my emails for almost two weeks. Have sent to three different email addresses but they arent getting back to me. Is this normal with managing agents?  

anselld

Duplicate post ...

   https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6572204/leak-in-leashold-flat-who-is-resposible#latest

subjecttocontract

In my 20+ years of letting property the main sources of water leaks were.....washing machine hoses & waste, sink wastes, hot & cold isolation valves, seal between bath/shower and the wall. A good plumber will be able to identify what is leaking and from where. Your plumber didn't seem to be much help. Get a good one and task him with finding the root cause of the leak. At the moment you don't know anything and the leak may not be the responsibility of the managing agents but the leasehold of the flat above.

Albermarle

In my 20+ years of letting property the main sources of water leaks were.....washing machine hoses & waste,
You can add dishwashers to that as well. 

ThisIsWeird

thenap80 said:

I have a tenanted flat. The bock of flats is Share Of Freehold. 
My tenant has a leak coming in from above. Managing agent for block told me to investigate myself with plumber. Plumber predicts it is to do with intenal pipes. Although tenant thinks it has something to do with rainwater as leak has coincided with heavy rain twice. 
I have contacted the managing agent as I woud have thought they have a responsibility to help getting this fixed. We pay a service charge and there will be building insurance surely that they have. Am I wrong? Who is in  charge of repair?
In any case, the managing agent are not responding to my emails for almost two weeks. Have sent to three different email addresses but they arent getting back to me. Is this normal with managing agents?  

Is it normal? No, but certainly not unheard of.

This leak is coming from above your flat, so the source will almost certainly be either from faulty plumbing serving the flat above, or it'll be coming through from outside - ie, rain. It could be either - you simply do not know*. And it ain't for you to find out - it's the FH's job.

Where it almost certainly isn't coming from, is from your flat. And yet the FH/ManCo is sitting on their hands, expecting you to sort this?

Incredible.

I'm not sure what the correct way to force the correct response to this issue is, but I suggest you 'put on notice', in a recordable manner, the owner of the flat above, and the FH/ManCo; inform them that your tenant is suffering a continued loss as a result, your contents insurance co has been informed of the issue, and has instructed you to make the other parties aware that they will pursuing all loses from them due to their procrastination.

Your LL policy for your flat - does it include a helpline? I understand many/most do - eg Direct Line? Call them.

Meanwhile, you - or your tenant - should take timed and dated photos of the leak and any resulting damage, on at least a daily basis.

*Many many years ago, I fitted a kitchen for my bro in his 6th floor flat. I woke the next morn to the sound of the answering machine recording a message from the flat below to say water was coming through their ceiling - the most terrifying sound I've heard in my sheltered life.

Turned out to be a blocked gulley, which sent the quite-heavy overnight rain overflowing into the gap between my bro's flat and the ceiling below.

The FH sent his guys out to investigate, and they sorted everything - as they should.

eddddy

ThisIsWeird said:

Turned out to be a blocked gulley, which sent the quite-heavy overnight rain overflowing into the gap between my bro's flat and the ceiling below.

The FH sent his guys out to investigate, and they sorted everything - as they should.

A blocked gully is (typically) the freeholder's responsibility.

ThisIsWeird said:

This leak is coming from above your flat, so the source will almost certainly be either from faulty plumbing serving the flat above, or it'll be coming through from outside - ie, rain. It could be either - you simply do not know*. And it ain't for you to find out - it's the FH's job.

A leak from the plumbing of the flat upstairs isn't the freeholder's responsibility.

Realistically, a freeholder typically won't get involved with that - because they won't get paid for their time and effort. (The lease won't allow the freeholder to recover their costs.)


But in any case, the OP says the building is a "shared freehold" - so I suspect they will deal with things in a more informal way.

DullGreyGuy

ThisIsWeird said:

Where it almost certainly isn't coming from, is from your flat. And yet the FH/ManCo is sitting on their hands, expecting you to sort this?

Our last two flats all the services, including water and central heating, travel in the ceiling. Whilst technically its inside your flat given its in the void between the plasterboard and the reinforced concrete floor above most will consider it coming from "above" when they see the water stain appear on the ceiling. 

They also state its share of freehold so the OP is the FH, or at least a percentage of it. 

ThisIsWeird

DullGreyGuy said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Where it almost certainly isn't coming from, is from your flat. And yet the FH/ManCo is sitting on their hands, expecting you to sort this?

Our last two flats all the services, including water and central heating, travel in the ceiling. Whilst technically its inside your flat given its in the void between the plasterboard and the reinforced concrete floor above most will consider it coming from "above" when they see the water stain appear on the ceiling. 

They also state its share of freehold so the OP is the FH, or at least a percentage of it. 

That's why I said 'almost' certainly - it's unusual, but obviously can happen. 

ThisIsWeird

eddddy said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Turned out to be a blocked gulley, which sent the quite-heavy overnight rain overflowing into the gap between my bro's flat and the ceiling below.

The FH sent his guys out to investigate, and they sorted everything - as they should.

A blocked gully is (typically) the freeholder's responsibility.

ThisIsWeird said:

This leak is coming from above your flat, so the source will almost certainly be either from faulty plumbing serving the flat above, or it'll be coming through from outside - ie, rain. It could be either - you simply do not know*. And it ain't for you to find out - it's the FH's job.

A leak from the plumbing of the flat upstairs isn't the freeholder's responsibility.
Realistically, a freeholder typically won't get involved with that - because they won't get paid for their time and effort. (The lease won't allow the freeholder to recover their costs.)
But in any case, the OP says the building is a "shared freehold" - so I suspect they will deal with things in a more informal way.

A conscientious FH should respond promptly to any report of water ingress - the fabric of the building is at risk. With a number of flats involved, the FH/ManCo should have a list of plumbers, sparkies, and general builders ready to call. That's partly what the sink fund is for.
If the leak is found to be coming from something caused by a LH - a badly plumbed WM for example - then they can pursue the miscreant afterwards if they wish. If the leak is from a failed-for-no-obvious-reason pipe under the floor, that should be considered a communal issue, as it's part of the fabric of the building - part of the essential services, a component that makes a flat a flat.
Regardless, the FH/ManCo's responsibility is to mitigate damage asap.
That, of course, is my opinion, but it is also what happens in well-managed blocks of flats. It seems the correct protocol to me.
My bro also had a further leak, years later, that affected the flat below, and the FH sent out his plumber. They found an original copper pipe under bro's floor which had an 'invisible' leak in it. There was no obvious cause, it was an original pipe, so it was replaced at no cost to bro. They also patched and made good the ceiling of the flat below, but in this case the FH owned that flat and rented it out, so I don't know what they'd have done otherwise - possibly patch, and flat owner paints?
(Bro took pipe section over to me, and I couldn't see the hole. Weird.)

eddddy

ThisIsWeird said:

A conscientious FH should respond promptly to any report of water ingress - the fabric of the building is at risk. With a number of flats involved, the FH/ManCo should have a list of plumbers, sparkies, and general builders ready to call. That's partly what the sink fund is for.
If the leak is found to be coming from something caused by a LH - a badly plumbed WM for example - then they can pursue the miscreant afterwards if they wish. If the leak is from a failed-for-no-obvious-reason pipe under the floor, that should be considered a communal issue, as it's part of the fabric of the building - part of the essential services, a component that makes a flat a flat.
Regardless, the FH/ManCo's responsibility is to mitigate damage asap.
That, of course, is my opinion, but it is also what happens in well-managed blocks of flats. It seems the correct protocol to me.

Yes - it's really important to emphasise that what you post is your opinion on how things should work.

In reality, it's what the lease and the law says that matters to the OP.

Unfortunately, you opinion doesn't really count in these circumstances.

For example, if this ended up in court, the judge wouldn't say "What's ThisIsWeird's opinion on this". Instead they would look at the lease and the law.

Most of what you say above isn't aligned with typical leases or the law.

In fact, if a freeholder did what you seem to be suggesting, the freeholder would be in danger of breaking the laws that are intended to protect leaseholders.

ThisIsWeird

eddddy said:

ThisIsWeird said:

A conscientious FH should respond promptly to any report of water ingress - the fabric of the building is at risk. With a number of flats involved, the FH/ManCo should have a list of plumbers, sparkies, and general builders ready to call. That's partly what the sink fund is for.
If the leak is found to be coming from something caused by a LH - a badly plumbed WM for example - then they can pursue the miscreant afterwards if they wish. If the leak is from a failed-for-no-obvious-reason pipe under the floor, that should be considered a communal issue, as it's part of the fabric of the building - part of the essential services, a component that makes a flat a flat.
Regardless, the FH/ManCo's responsibility is to mitigate damage asap.
That, of course, is my opinion, but it is also what happens in well-managed blocks of flats. It seems the correct protocol to me.

Yes - it's really important to emphasise that what you post is your opinion on how things should work.
In reality, it's what the lease and the law says that matters to the OP.
Unfortunately, you opinion doesn't really count in these circumstances.
For example, if this ended up in court, the judge wouldn't say "What's ThisIsWeird's opinion on this". Instead they would look at the lease and the law.
Most of what you say above isn't aligned with typical leases or the law.
In fact, if a freeholder did what you seem to be suggesting, the freeholder would be in danger of breaking the laws that are intended to protect leaseholders.

So if a pipe in the flat above bursts, and water courses through your ceiling, it's up to you to sort it?

Ok, I'm being flip.

But, in that scenario - water comes through your ceiling, and you rush upstairs to see if the flat above knows what's going on, what next?

You call out a plumber for the flat above? You threaten legal action against the flat owner if they don't?