RTS going, but what comes next?

Concorde1893

Hi Folks,

We have two electricity meters feeding different parts of our house.  One is the traditional black meter (not a smart one) which supplies our general lighting and other electricity.  The other is a white meter which is controlled via an RTS switch and supplies off peak power to our night storage heaters.  Our supplier (OVO) wants to replace the RTS switch with a smart meter before RTS is switched off next year.  However I am told that the same tariff can no longer apply and they've mentioned Economy 7 or Economy 10 as possibilities.  As far as I understand it, Economy 7 (and also Economy 10) is a system whereby the whole house switches between standard and off peak rates and would not be suitable for us since our night storage heaters are the old sort and do not have timers built in.  OVO say they need to know what tariff we want before they install a smart meter since they are different for different tariffs.  Naturally we want the cheapest option for our usage, but we don't know which option to go for.  In times gone by we couldn't switch our supplier since not all suppliers would supply a separate white meter circuit - i am not sure whether this is still the case.  Any advice about our options and choices would be welcome - in particular can we just have the RTS changed for some new device and carry on basically as we are?

Thanks in advance for any helpful replies,    Concorde1893

molerat

The smart meter will have 5 wires with the 5th wire going to your separate white meter heating circuit.  This wire will only be live during the off peak times but the whole usage during that time will be at the cheaper rate.  You may need an electrician, at your cost, to ensure the wiring is set up correctly.  Or post up some pictures of your current metering and consumer unit(s).

Phones4Chris

As mentioned by @molerat you should be getting a 5 terminal smart meter where that 5th terminal supplies your NSH consumer unit only active in the off-peak night rate times on E7.
What you haven't said is how many (and what) NSH hours you get with the white meter? Traditionally the White meter (RTS) could have been set up for 8 hrs or 7hrs, depending on when it was installed and the tariff you signed up to. On the other hand you MAY be getting an afternoon boost (an E10 tariff). These are generally a lot more expensive than E7.
How old are your NSHs? (Makes/models?) They may cope reasonably well with E7 if not too old.
I would ask OVO what the tariff RATES are for the E7 and the E10 so you can compare with your current charges.

Ildhund

Phones4Chris said:

I would ask OVO what the tariff RATES are for the E7 and the E10 so you can compare with your current charges.

OVO publish all their tariffs online, and this seems to be a more reliable way of finding out what they are than asking a support agent. 
Our prices | OVO Energy

It's not quite so easy to find out what the offpeak hours are for a particular plan in a particular region, and of course this is vital information when trying to work out which plan is best in specific circumstances. First, find the region ID: it's the first two digits of the 13-digit MPAN (bottom line) on any bill. Then check these published tables I've dug out for smart meter timings:
 
1.  OVO Economy 7

 

2.  OVO Economy 10

Region 10,11,12, 14,15,16,19,20, 21, 22, 23

12.00am - 5.00am | 1.00pm - 4.00pm | 8.00pm - 10.00pm (GMT)

Region 18 & 13

 4:30am - 7:30am | 1:00pm - 4:00pm | 8:30pm - 12:30am (GMT)

Region 17

 4:30am - 7:30am | 1:30pm - 4:30pm | 8:30pm - 12:30am (GMT)

Concorde1893

Thanks a lot Ildhund and molerat, I'll have to dig out my bill and find out my area code.  Are the figures in the STD and E7 columns charge per kWh?

Molerat mentions a 5 terminal smart meter with one lead driving the old white meter heating load.  Does this mean that this smart meter will replace both my existing black and white meters?  Also is it possible to let me know the most reliable up to date 5 terminal smart meter type so I can ask for it by name?

Our storage heaters are old but still function OK - we only use them for background heating since we have a gas fire in our lounge and gas water heating in the bathroom.  So we are not interested in updating them at this time.

Our account with OVO includes gas supply so presumably this is treated separately as far as smart metering is concerned?

Many thanks for your helpful replies. Concorde1893

400ixl

Gas smart meters are separate but linked. They need an electric smart meter to be in place as they connect to the comms hub from that to communicate.

Ildhund

Concorde1893 said:

I'll have to dig out my bill and find out my area code.  
  

  ... or look here:
  

Concorde1893 said:

Are the figures in the STD and E7 columns charge per kWh?

No, they're just codes that say what the switching times are. The charges you get from the Plans page. 

  Concorde1893 said:

Molerat mentions a 5 terminal smart meter with one lead driving the old white meter heating load.  Does this mean that this smart meter will replace both my existing black and white meters?    

 Yes. The meter engineer should make sure that the storage heaters and water heater are charged from from the 'offpeak' circuit.
  
 Concorde1893 said:

Also is it possible to let me know the most reliable up to date 5 terminal smart meter type so I can ask for it by name?

Sorry, no - it's a question of get what you're given and like it, I'm afraid. That said, OVO are installing mostly Aclara meters, although some customers will get Landis + Gyr models. It's often pot luck, depending on what he's got in his van at the time.

 Concorde1893 said:

Our account with OVO includes gas supply so presumably this is treated separately as far as smart metering is concerned?

Yes, but ... the meter engineer should exchange all the meters for smart ones. The gas meter will then be able to talk to the electricity meter, which in turn talks to OVO so you don't have to submit readings.
 

Phones4Chris

@Concorde1893 Did you not read my post -  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81127638/#Comment_81127638

Scot_39

Concorde1893 said:

Hi Folks,

We have two electricity meters feeding different parts of our house.  One is the traditional black meter (not a smart one) which supplies our general lighting and other electricity.  The other is a white meter which is controlled via an RTS switch and supplies off peak power to our night storage heaters.  Our supplier (OVO) wants to replace the RTS switch with a smart meter before RTS is switched off next year.  However I am told that the same tariff can no longer apply and they've mentioned Economy 7 or Economy 10 as possibilities.  As far as I understand it, Economy 7 (and also Economy 10) is a system whereby the whole house switches between standard and off peak rates and would not be suitable for us since our night storage heaters are the old sort and do not have timers built in.  OVO say they need to know what tariff we want before they install a smart meter since they are different for different tariffs.  Naturally we want the cheapest option for our usage, but we don't know which option to go for.  In times gone by we couldn't switch our supplier since not all suppliers would supply a separate white meter circuit - i am not sure whether this is still the case.  Any advice about our options and choices would be welcome - in particular can we just have the RTS changed for some new device and carry on basically as we are?

Thanks in advance for any helpful replies,    Concorde1893

At the moment you may be paying different rates - perhaps even closer to normal sr rates on your 24/7 meter and your restricted rts meter circuit for nsh.
My old rts setup was split metering as yours - but i paid 2 standing charges for them - this many years ago before they near doubled.
So check bills and see if you may also be paying two electric SC - on ave currently just over £200 pa.

Without knowing your current charges rates and standing charge or charges, usage balance and any new rates its difficult yo say - but you could do some fag packet estimates.

So all rts meter units - compare to e7 orve10 off peak.

All normal meter - on e7 overnight normal for most homes will be small - maybe as low as 10% despite that being 7 of 24 hrs - if no nsh or hw heating going on.

On e10 might be trickier as afternoon and evening slots allow more 'normal use'  at off peak.  I wouldn't like to put a figure on it - maybe more like third to half if really disciplined ( I will often cook, use washing machine etc in my afternoon 1-4 gmt and evening 8-10 gmt off peak slots to get that events 1kWh or so at off peak rather than peak). 



In most modern homes  E7 and e10 rates will normally operate on a single meter - so yes tariffs will switch for the whole house.  But one meter only 1 standing charge - saving one standing charge if you pay 2  (not all rts do pay 2 - but i did for a long time - but my off peak rate was cheaper than  e7 or my only multirate choice when removed to match rts timings e10 - swings and roundabouts.).

So an off peak rate and a peak rate applies  purely by time to everything  - not by use split.
But can and will still provide a restricted time output - live for 7 hrs on e7 and 10 hrs on e10  - which should be active only at the off peak rate times.

But the tariff timing is set in the meter itself  as is  the restricted circuit timing and the actual switch be made by a smart meter with auxiliary load control switch facility. No external rts  timer required.  The switch for restricted feed often built in - in the 5 port / meter tail version, but sometimes like in my case - controlled via a thinner signal wire to an auxiliary 100A switching contactor block.  That's your suppliers choice.


If your heaters are very old or you are used to rts operating an afternoon boost period for them in winter and hot water year round  at cheap rate -  you might want to consider the  e10 option to provide afternoon and evening boosts.

I pay a premium c3-4p/kWh  on my e10 off peak over e7 when last checked, but my heaters are old like 25 yr old by date on user pamphlet - and so  lossy.  So I try to avoid the peak temperature - or the too hot am too cold pm quandry by keeping 3 off peak times - night, afternoon and late evening.

Many more modern have a much better chance of surviving on cheaper e7.


Once on a nice new shiny smets2 meter - your choices of standard tariffs or switching will improve.

But the sad reality is the flexible timings and rates etc that many on older legacy deals aren't as widely offered.

Even on e10 - standard comparison sites were no use - and many suppliers when contacted years ago wouldn't offer to new customers.

But Octopus appear to be shaking up the options for nsh users reliant on meter switching - with their new Snug launch - open to pre registration for existing customers for now but might expand once running.  Which includes a 1 hr boost slot in afternoons in winter.