Night storage heaters, RHT tariffs and EON Energy

T1730578772

Dear All,

I have been advised to ask on this site having not achieved any useful progress after contacting EON back in 2021.

My house has got two sets of night storage heaters on different floors.  The set on the top floor date from the 60s & 70s, have proved to be reliable and convenient and I don't want to loose them. They are an 'Economy 10' type -- that is they require 10 hours of charging time per 24 hours.  The now only remaining storage heater on the ground floor is a more modern 'Economy 7' type and could run on a nightly charge of 7 hours.

There are three separate single rate electricity meters.  One meters the general 'power' and 'lights' circuits that supplies the lights, 13A sockets outlets, shower etc.  The other two are the RHT ones that feed the two sets of storage heaters. Both have separate times-switches which are on for 7 hours in the night (12am-7am I believe) plus a 3 hour 'afternoon boost' in the afternoon. The storage heaters are all 'wired-in' to their wall sockets for their exclusive use.  I very much like having these three meters and being able to see how much electricity is being used on each set.

For many years, decades in fact, we have been on an RHT tariff for the two storage heater meters, which offered a significantly lower charge per kWh plus a low standing charge.

AIUI Before 2021 we were on "Energy Plan UR Complex Meters" which contained the "RHT All Hours Oct 2013" tariff. That year, without any warning or explanation,  EON  withdrew that plan and replaced it with "E.ON EnergyPlan" which does not have an RHT tariff option.

The cost change for the two affected RHT meters was from 9.377p / kWh with a 1.365p / day standing charge to 19.001p / kWh with (I believe) a 24.026p / day standing charge.  This put these two meters on the same tariff as the 'power' and 'lights' one.  I thought this was pretty exorbitant at the time in 2021. 

I phoned EON back then. They confirmed that plan and the RHT tariffs that went with it had been withdrawn and that the best they could offer was an 'Economy 10' tariff.  By this they meant the three meters would be removed and replaced by a single multi-rate meter which would offer cheaper electricity for storage heaters and other 'power' and 'lights' circuit appliances at night. I believe this arrangement is what used to be known as 'the white meter'.  The quoted costs were; Off-peak: 13.493p/kWh, Peak-rate: 21.739p/kWh, Standing charge: 24.026p per day which are poorer rates compared to the previous plan with RHT. As explained above I do not want to loose the three meters I have.  I am not even certain that what they were proposing is technically possible -- as the two storage heater circuits are on a different phase from the main 'power' and 'lights' one -- but I am not an electrician!

I had hoped they might have come up with a more suitable plan/tariff since then but AFAICT not. The current tariff for all three meters is their default 'Next Flex' which is charging 21.984p/kWh + 47.539p/day standing charge for each.

I have noticed EON are not averse to creating new tariffs with good rates for night time use such as their "Next Drive EV" tariff which charges 6.7p per kWh between 12am and 7am.

Ideally I would like them to just bring back the previous plan with its RHT tariffs, or something very similar to it. I presume that is unlikely?

Bearing in mind I want to keep my three meters, ideally unchanged, what are my options? I am willing to change to another supplier if that helps.

Many thanks

Gerry1

T1730578772 said:

They confirmed that plan and the RHT tariffs that went with it had been withdrawn and that the best they could offer was an 'Economy 10' tariff.  By this they meant the three meters would be removed and replaced by a single multi-rate meter which would offer cheaper electricity for storage heaters and other 'power' and 'lights' circuit appliances at night. I believe this arrangement is what used to be known as 'the white meter'.

Not quite, the White Meter was linked to a 1970s tariff that gave eight hours overnight at a lower rate.  The tariff was replaced by Economy 7.

If you wish to change supplier, one of Octopus's innovative tariffs would probably be the best you're likely to get.  Don't forget to claim a £50 bonus by using a friend's referral code.

MWT

Gerry1 said:

If you wish to change supplier, one of Octopus's innovative tariffs would probably be the best you're likely to get.  Don't forget to claim a £50 bonus by using a friend's referral code.

That will not achieve the desire to keep the 3 meters though as any of those Octopus tariffs will require a smart meter, and most of the 'innovative' tariffs require some form of 'low-carbon' technology, i.e. an EV, Solar PV or at least a home battery.

T1730578772 said:

I am not even certain that what they were proposing is technically possible -- as the two storage heater circuits are on a different phase from the main 'power' and 'lights' one -- but I am not an electrician!

Do you have any other high consumption devices in the house that would in conjunction with your NSH require more than a single 100A supply?

I doubt that any practical solution is going keep your 3 existing meters though, but it may still be possible to instal your own private metering on those circuits so you retain visibility of the use.

Keep_pedalling

You say that the meters are on different phases and you are paying a standing charge for each meter so you have a 3 phase supply which is costing you a small fortune. A single three phase meter only has a single standing charge. 

Scot_39

T1730578772 said:

Dear All,

I have been advised to ask on this site having not achieved any useful progress after contacting EON back in 2021.

My house has got two sets of night storage heaters on different floors.  The set on the top floor date from the 60s & 70s, have proved to be reliable and convenient and I don't want to loose them. They are an 'Economy 10' type -- that is they require 10 hours of charging time per 24 hours.  The now only remaining storage heater on the ground floor is a more modern 'Economy 7' type and could run on a nightly charge of 7 hours.

There are three separate single rate electricity meters.  One meters the general 'power' and 'lights' circuits that supplies the lights, 13A sockets outlets, shower etc.  The other two are the RHT ones that feed the two sets of storage heaters. Both have separate times-switches which are on for 7 hours in the night (12am-7am I believe) plus a 3 hour 'afternoon boost' in the afternoon. The storage heaters are all 'wired-in' to their wall sockets for their exclusive use.  I very much like having these three meters and being able to see how much electricity is being used on each set.

For many years, decades in fact, we have been on an RHT tariff for the two storage heater meters, which offered a significantly lower charge per kWh plus a low standing charge.

AIUI Before 2021 we were on "Energy Plan UR Complex Meters" which contained the "RHT All Hours Oct 2013" tariff. That year, without any warning or explanation,  EON  withdrew that plan and replaced it with "E.ON EnergyPlan" which does not have an RHT tariff option.

The cost change for the two affected RHT meters was from 9.377p / kWh with a 1.365p / day standing charge to 19.001p / kWh with (I believe) a 24.026p / day standing charge.  This put these two meters on the same tariff as the 'power' and 'lights' one.  I thought this was pretty exorbitant at the time in 2021. 

I phoned EON back then. They confirmed that plan and the RHT tariffs that went with it had been withdrawn and that the best they could offer was an 'Economy 10' tariff.  By this they meant the three meters would be removed and replaced by a single multi-rate meter which would offer cheaper electricity for storage heaters and other 'power' and 'lights' circuit appliances at night. I believe this arrangement is what used to be known as 'the white meter'.  The quoted costs were; Off-peak: 13.493p/kWh, Peak-rate: 21.739p/kWh, Standing charge: 24.026p per day which are poorer rates compared to the previous plan with RHT. As explained above I do not want to loose the three meters I have.  I am not even certain that what they were proposing is technically possible -- as the two storage heater circuits are on a different phase from the main 'power' and 'lights' one -- but I am not an electrician!

I had hoped they might have come up with a more suitable plan/tariff since then but AFAICT not. The current tariff for all three meters is their default 'Next Flex' which is charging 21.984p/kWh + 47.539p/day standing charge for each.

I have noticed EON are not averse to creating new tariffs with good rates for night time use such as their "Next Drive EV" tariff which charges 6.7p per kWh between 12am and 7am.

Ideally I would like them to just bring back the previous plan with its RHT tariffs, or something very similar to it. I presume that is unlikely?

Bearing in mind I want to keep my three meters, ideally unchanged, what are my options? I am willing to change to another supplier if that helps.

Many thanks

EOn even pre EOn Next have long since abandoned many of their legacy metering systems and tariffs - they really aren't likely to be coming back.  EonNext are not at all keen on complex metering at all  - based on one scan of their nes cipustomers T&Cs well maybe about 1yr -18m ago.

I lost emeb heatwise legacy rts switch tariff years ago as part of their meter tariff and simplification exercises.  E10 rates were much higher too.  So understand the pain.

From another post here I am not sure if even my legacy E10 will survive the next meter upgrade, and despite ombudsman backing that poster never got e10 back after a meter upgrade which was set for e7.

If your meters are currently separately supplied - then you will not only pay per meter to remove. But potentially per dno street supply.  You need to try to find out not only number of meters but number of supplies from street level. 

Edf iirc still have a complex metering section from posts in recent years.  EOn Next afaik didn't keep the old EOn one - well not on their old direct dial number anyways.


Do you know what the power ratings required for the restricted circuits for both floors. 

You may need to have an electrician or even your dno involved if meter changes - if need look at any revised street supply arrangement. 

But if EOn were offering you 1 E10 meter hopefully it's all within a single phase and its limit.

I only had 1 incoming single phase street supply (1 cable, 1 fuse) that split to both my old normal and old  rts hw / nsh meter. 

But not sure of the history of three meters 2 split by floor on different timeswitches sounds strange choice.  Was that property split at one stage or is it a very large home  - if so you may have more complex street supply than typical home.

I also suspect you might struggle to move the restricted time metering as is to another supplier.

And many rts time switches are being eol by signal switch off or older mechanical clocks will be out of certification potentially - of simply not trusteed to be switching accurately - so only offered a single rate deal anywaupy - so you may be in need of new meter or meters imminently.

There were smart meters that could cope with your 3 way split circuits - but not aware of any UK suppliers who fitted them  - then or now if still available.

Most are at best afaik offering e7 2 rate 2 circuit if with alcs for 1 restricted circuit and normal.

But not all last time checked likes  of ovo and sp websites - been a while - have clarified their replacement strategy for the more complex rts setups with e.g. 3 (or more ?) rates / circuits.


But you can either keep paying for 3 meters or pay to remove 2 and go multirate on 1 as suggested years ago. 

When i was moved eon didnt charge me to remove meters - but that was as they were forcing the move  by abandoning the old metering. Other suppliers do charge to remove second and so I guess third meters - from posts of people moving off of things like thtc at other suppliers to single metering when upgrading heating.


And if it's not for secondary billing (are the floors tennanted in some way) a couple of ct clamps and an app / dedicated panel might give you enough data.  Or maybe you could have an electrician fit your own secondary meters before each cu ( as many landlords do when splitting one main incoming meter supply bill) for accuracy.

And at least then with a new shiny single smets2 multirate you might be able to access cheaper off peak rates  - like e7 as the markets been pretty dull for legacy electrics  - but the new proposed Snug Octopus deal at 9p/kWh off peak has caught my attention - for meter switched nsh. It's only 6 night hrs +1 afternoon hrs - but that  hr afternoon boost might well be enough and suit for both sets of your heaters.


And if it's an option - do you really want to retain nsh at all.  

Maybe per room individual reverse air con with their cop efficiency effective rate savings and run at single rate or bite bullet and go full blown ashp using the £7500 grant to cover part costs..

QrizB

Unless you've got an unusually large power demand, you might find that you can move all your appliances to a single phase and still stay within the usual 100A/24kW limit.

If not, a single three-phase smart meter might do the job.

I haven't checked what the current rates are, but OVO offer a "Smart Economy 9" tariff that might suit:

https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/article/electric-heating/economy-9

T1730578772

MWT said:

Gerry1 said:

If you wish to change supplier, one of Octopus's innovative tariffs would probably be the best you're likely to get.  Don't forget to claim a £50 bonus by using a friend's referral code.

That will not achieve the desire to keep the 3 meters though as any of those Octopus tariffs will require a smart meter, and most of the 'innovative' tariffs require some form of 'low-carbon' technology, i.e. an EV, Solar PV or at least a home battery.

T1730578772 said:

I am not even certain that what they were proposing is technically possible -- as the two storage heater circuits are on a different phase from the main 'power' and 'lights' one -- but I am not an electrician!

Do you have any other high consumption devices in the house that would in conjunction with your NSH require more than a single 100A supply?

I doubt that any practical solution is going keep your 3 existing meters though, but it may still be possible to instal your own private metering on those circuits so you retain visibility of the use.

First of all, my thanks to all who followed-up.  

Adding up the maximum conceivable total consumption (all NSH charging + shower on + 30A power circuit ring main maxed out) comes to about 96A. I was told decades ago that the house 'wiring' on the original power + lights circuit was insufficient when NSHs were installed and that was why a 2nd phase was put in to power them. It is noticeable that the lights dim (voltage drop) when the shower is turned on. The shower is only 7kW which is not large by today's standards,

T1730578772

Keep_pedalling said:

You say that the meters are on different phases and you are paying a standing charge for each meter so you have a 3 phase supply which is costing you a small fortune. A single three phase meter only has a single standing charge. 

I only have two phases.  I presume a three phase meter needs all 3 phases to be present?

T1730578772

Scot_39 said:

T1730578772 said:

Dear All,

I have been advised to ask on this site having not achieved any useful progress after contacting EON back in 2021.

My house has got two sets of night storage heaters on different floors.  The set on the top floor date from the 60s & 70s, have proved to be reliable and convenient and I don't want to loose them. They are an 'Economy 10' type -- that is they require 10 hours of charging time per 24 hours.  The now only remaining storage heater on the ground floor is a more modern 'Economy 7' type and could run on a nightly charge of 7 hours.

There are three separate single rate electricity meters.  One meters the general 'power' and 'lights' circuits that supplies the lights, 13A sockets outlets, shower etc.  The other two are the RHT ones that feed the two sets of storage heaters. Both have separate times-switches which are on for 7 hours in the night (12am-7am I believe) plus a 3 hour 'afternoon boost' in the afternoon. The storage heaters are all 'wired-in' to their wall sockets for their exclusive use.  I very much like having these three meters and being able to see how much electricity is being used on each set.

For many years, decades in fact, we have been on an RHT tariff for the two storage heater meters, which offered a significantly lower charge per kWh plus a low standing charge.

AIUI Before 2021 we were on "Energy Plan UR Complex Meters" which contained the "RHT All Hours Oct 2013" tariff. That year, without any warning or explanation,  EON  withdrew that plan and replaced it with "E.ON EnergyPlan" which does not have an RHT tariff option.

The cost change for the two affected RHT meters was from 9.377p / kWh with a 1.365p / day standing charge to 19.001p / kWh with (I believe) a 24.026p / day standing charge.  This put these two meters on the same tariff as the 'power' and 'lights' one.  I thought this was pretty exorbitant at the time in 2021. 

I phoned EON back then. They confirmed that plan and the RHT tariffs that went with it had been withdrawn and that the best they could offer was an 'Economy 10' tariff.  By this they meant the three meters would be removed and replaced by a single multi-rate meter which would offer cheaper electricity for storage heaters and other 'power' and 'lights' circuit appliances at night. I believe this arrangement is what used to be known as 'the white meter'.  The quoted costs were; Off-peak: 13.493p/kWh, Peak-rate: 21.739p/kWh, Standing charge: 24.026p per day which are poorer rates compared to the previous plan with RHT. As explained above I do not want to loose the three meters I have.  I am not even certain that what they were proposing is technically possible -- as the two storage heater circuits are on a different phase from the main 'power' and 'lights' one -- but I am not an electrician!

I had hoped they might have come up with a more suitable plan/tariff since then but AFAICT not. The current tariff for all three meters is their default 'Next Flex' which is charging 21.984p/kWh + 47.539p/day standing charge for each.

I have noticed EON are not averse to creating new tariffs with good rates for night time use such as their "Next Drive EV" tariff which charges 6.7p per kWh between 12am and 7am.

Ideally I would like them to just bring back the previous plan with its RHT tariffs, or something very similar to it. I presume that is unlikely?

Bearing in mind I want to keep my three meters, ideally unchanged, what are my options? I am willing to change to another supplier if that helps.

Many thanks

EOn even pre EOn Next have long since abandoned many of their legacy metering systems and tariffs - they really aren't likely to be coming back.  EonNext are not at all keen on complex metering at all  - based on one scan of their nes cipustomers T&Cs well maybe about 1yr -18m ago.

I lost emeb heatwise legacy rts switch tariff years ago as part of their meter tariff and simplification exercises.  E10 rates were much higher too.  So understand the pain.

From another post here I am not sure if even my legacy E10 will survive the next meter upgrade, and despite ombudsman backing that poster never got e10 back after a meter upgrade which was set for e7.

If your meters are currently separately supplied - then you will not only pay per meter to remove. But potentially per dno street supply.  You need to try to find out not only number of meters but number of supplies from street level. 

Edf iirc still have a complex metering section from posts in recent years.  EOn Next afaik didn't keep the old EOn one - well not on their old direct dial number anyways.

Do you know what the power ratings required for the restricted circuits for both floors. 

You may need to have an electrician or even your dno involved if meter changes - if need look at any revised street supply arrangement. 

But if EOn were offering you 1 E10 meter hopefully it's all within a single phase and its limit.

I only had 1 incoming single phase street supply (1 cable, 1 fuse) that split to both my old normal and old  rts hw / nsh meter. 

But not sure of the history of three meters 2 split by floor on different timeswitches sounds strange choice.  Was that property split at one stage or is it a very large home  - if so you may have more complex street supply than typical home.

I also suspect you might struggle to move the restricted time metering as is to another supplier.

And many rts time switches are being eol by signal switch off or older mechanical clocks will be out of certification potentially - of simply not trusteed to be switching accurately - so only offered a single rate deal anywaupy - so you may be in need of new meter or meters imminently.

There were smart meters that could cope with your 3 way split circuits - but not aware of any UK suppliers who fitted them  - then or now if still available.

Most are at best afaik offering e7 2 rate 2 circuit if with alcs for 1 restricted circuit and normal.

But not all last time checked likes  of ovo and sp websites - been a while - have clarified their replacement strategy for the more complex rts setups with e.g. 3 (or more ?) rates / circuits.


But you can either keep paying for 3 meters or pay to remove 2 and go multirate on 1 as suggested years ago. 

When i was moved eon didnt charge me to remove meters - but that was as they were forcing the move  by abandoning the old metering. Other suppliers do charge to remove second and so I guess third meters - from posts of people moving off of things like thtc at other suppliers to single metering when upgrading heating.


And if it's not for secondary billing (are the floors tennanted in some way) a couple of ct clamps and an app / dedicated panel might give you enough data.  Or maybe you could have an electrician fit your own secondary meters before each cu ( as many landlords do when splitting one main incoming meter supply bill) for accuracy.

And at least then with a new shiny single smets2 multirate you might be able to access cheaper off peak rates  - like e7 as the markets been pretty dull for legacy electrics  - but the new proposed Snug Octopus deal at 9p/kWh off peak has caught my attention - for meter switched nsh. It's only 6 night hrs +1 afternoon hrs - but that  hr afternoon boost might well be enough and suit for both sets of your heaters.


And if it's an option - do you really want to retain nsh at all.  

Maybe per room individual reverse air con with their cop efficiency effective rate savings and run at single rate or bite bullet and go full blown ashp using the £7500 grant to cover part costs..

Thanks for your detailed and informative follow-up!

I have 3 meters and 2 supplies from the street (3 cables; 2 phases & neutral).  The main power and lights circuit are on one phase and the two sets of NSHs (each with their own meter + mechanical time-switch) are on the other phase.

The house history: It has always been a owner-occupied family home and not sub-let etc. Originally it had just coal fires. Then the two floors had NSHs installed and the 2nd phase + second meter was put in.  Later loft extension rooms were built and 3 more NSH added with another meter. Finally gas central heating with radiators was installed on original two floors and the original NSHs removed.  Some years after that a single new E7 type NSH was installed in one of the ground floor rooms and wired into the original NSH circuit.

The two NSH time-switches are mechanical/clockwork ones. We have never had RTS switching.

If it were possible to keep my existing three meters (for personal use only, buy them from the DNO maybe??) and have a new meter put the supply side of them, I would be open to that. If so, I imagine it would be a choice between a classic two rate meter (E10?) or a smart one which would give access to the lowest £/kWh tariffs such as Octopus Snug? This is all providing the 2 phases could be accommodated by the classic two rate meter or a smart meter.

Personally I really dislike the surveillance aspect of smart meters.  I suppose it comes down to whether I most dislike being overcharged or surveilled!

Yes, I like my NSHs and won't give them up!

Gerry1

HHR NSHs make sense if you can't get gas, but why do you want them when you have GCH?

bob2302

Gerry1 said:

HHR NSHs make sense if you can't get gas, but why do you want them when you have GCH?

From what the OP wrote it sounds like they are in a loft conversion and ground floor extension where the GCH doesn't reach.

FWIW I have GCH, but would use an NSH if I had one. I choose my current tariff for its daytime rates, but it comes with 5h at 5p/kWh which I wont get much use out of. 5p/kWh is considerably cheaper that gas.