P45 issues

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Kai77 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

tizerbelle said:

Do you have the payslip for the last time that you were paid in the 2023/24 tax year?  That will show the total gross and taxable pay received within the year and the total tax paid - look for "to date" or YTD.  Those figures will be your taxable income details for that employment in 23/24. 

Although you left the company in March 24, your final pay was paid in the 24/25 tax year and so the P45 is correct in only listing the amount you received in April as the income from that employment as tax is due on the payment/processing date.  This final bit of income will go towards your 24/25 self-assessment.

I agree with all of that.

But if the bit highlighted in bold is true then a P60 for 2023-24 should have been provided.

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

I agree with the bit in bold, it makes no sense for the employer to do that, they clearly haven't understood how inconsistent it is!

Annoying though this may be why do you feel a P60 is so important?

And what do you think will be gained by the P45 being reissued?

Did HMRC explain that employers stopped sending P45's to them (HMRC) over 10 years ago?  The only person who has the P45 you are concerned about is you.

tizerbelle

It is not an error by the employer.  The employee is not employed on the 5 April.  Still being on payroll pending final payment is not the same as being employed.  No payroller would operate on that basis.

You are not taking into account payroll processing periods / cut offs.  An employer who pays on the 15th of each month for example could be paying for work done throughout the prior calendar month or they could be paying for the 16th of last month up to the 15th of this month.  That is their business decision to make.

With this example, if someone leaves on 31 March, their final pay will be calculated/processed as part of the 15th April pay run.  It would be highly unusual for an extra pay run to be actioned to process leavers pay for their actual leave date. The leaver's final pay will be processed as part of the normal pay run procedure and a P45 generated at that point and in relation to the payroll processing date.  This is nothing out of the ordinary.  It is business as usual.  If it were any other month no one would bat an eye.

Regulation 67 clearly refers to the employee being "in the employer’s employment on the last day of the tax year". This is not the case  for OP.  They were not employed by at that date.  Would you ever refer to the date you left an employer as the date you got your final pay rather than the day you left the building and stopped doing any work for them?  

The payment after leaving procedures only apply for payments made after a P45 has already been issued. It is not a process for dealing with leaver's final pay.

tizerbelle

Kai77 said:

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

If the person you were speaking to at HMRC did indeed suggest that a P45 need be re-issued I would not trust another word they said as they do not know what they are talking about. Regulations forbid the issue of a second P45, if they don't know that then they need more training.  

Kai77

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Kai77 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

tizerbelle said:

Do you have the payslip for the last time that you were paid in the 2023/24 tax year?  That will show the total gross and taxable pay received within the year and the total tax paid - look for "to date" or YTD.  Those figures will be your taxable income details for that employment in 23/24. 

Although you left the company in March 24, your final pay was paid in the 24/25 tax year and so the P45 is correct in only listing the amount you received in April as the income from that employment as tax is due on the payment/processing date.  This final bit of income will go towards your 24/25 self-assessment.

I agree with all of that.

But if the bit highlighted in bold is true then a P60 for 2023-24 should have been provided.

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

I agree with the bit in bold, it makes no sense for the employer to do that, they clearly haven't understood how inconsistent it is!

Annoying though this may be why do you feel a P60 is so important?

And what do you think will be gained by the P45 being reissued?

Did HMRC explain that employers stopped sending P45's to them (HMRC) over 10 years ago?  The only person who has the P45 you are concerned about is you.

Thank you. HMRC themselves said it might cause issues with self assessment! I don't really care what I receive as long as I have the correct paperwork to ensure I will not have issues further down the line. Based on HMRC's advice, that's not the case at the moment so I want to be sure I prevent future headaches.

Hoenir

Kai77 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Kai77 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

tizerbelle said:

Do you have the payslip for the last time that you were paid in the 2023/24 tax year?  That will show the total gross and taxable pay received within the year and the total tax paid - look for "to date" or YTD.  Those figures will be your taxable income details for that employment in 23/24. 

Although you left the company in March 24, your final pay was paid in the 24/25 tax year and so the P45 is correct in only listing the amount you received in April as the income from that employment as tax is due on the payment/processing date.  This final bit of income will go towards your 24/25 self-assessment.

I agree with all of that.

But if the bit highlighted in bold is true then a P60 for 2023-24 should have been provided.

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

I agree with the bit in bold, it makes no sense for the employer to do that, they clearly haven't understood how inconsistent it is!

Annoying though this may be why do you feel a P60 is so important?

And what do you think will be gained by the P45 being reissued?

Did HMRC explain that employers stopped sending P45's to them (HMRC) over 10 years ago?  The only person who has the P45 you are concerned about is you.

Thank you. HMRC themselves said it might cause issues with self assessment! I don't really care what I receive as long as I have the correct paperwork to ensure I will not have issues further down the line. Based on HMRC's advice, that's not the case at the moment so I want to be sure I prevent future headaches.

Payroll submissions are made online to the HMRC. As far as your income is concerned it has been correctly reported. 

Kai77

tizerbelle said:

Kai77 said:

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

If the person you were speaking to at HMRC did indeed suggest that a P45 need be re-issued I would not trust another word they said as they do not know what they are talking about. Regulations forbid the issue of a second P45, if they don't know that then they need more training.  

Ok thank you. So for the purposes of self assessment and to avoid any issues with my next employer, the P45 is fine and a Statement of Earnings for the previous tax year will suffice?

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Kai77 said:

tizerbelle said:

Kai77 said:

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

If the person you were speaking to at HMRC did indeed suggest that a P45 need be re-issued I would not trust another word they said as they do not know what they are talking about. Regulations forbid the issue of a second P45, if they don't know that then they need more training.  

Ok thank you. So for the purposes of self assessment and to avoid any issues with my next employer, the P45 is fine and a Statement of Earnings for the previous tax year will suffice?

What do you need that for?  A Self Assessment return requires you to enter details of the earnings and tax deducted.  What will you be doing with the statement of earnings 🤔

Kai77

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Kai77 said:

tizerbelle said:

Kai77 said:

Thank you yes the only payment in April was the pay listed on the P45 and that's exactly why I think I should have received a P60 for the previous tax year. HMRC suggested the P45 itself was wrong for listing a 2023/24 leave date on a 2024/25 payment P45.

I am trying to understand if the P60 for 2023/24 year is necessary or not. They said they could issue a Statement of Earnings instead (and I think it's on my last payslip before I left too)?

And whether, as HMRC seemed to suggest, the P45 needs to be reissued?

If the person you were speaking to at HMRC did indeed suggest that a P45 need be re-issued I would not trust another word they said as they do not know what they are talking about. Regulations forbid the issue of a second P45, if they don't know that then they need more training.  

Ok thank you. So for the purposes of self assessment and to avoid any issues with my next employer, the P45 is fine and a Statement of Earnings for the previous tax year will suffice?

What do you need that for?  A Self Assessment return requires you to enter details of the earnings and tax deducted.  What will you be doing with the statement of earnings 🤔

I thought I needed to keep a record of it and also so that my accountant can have a full picture of employee vs self employed income for the year. I have always been asked to provide P60s by accountants in previous years (again, I've always been an employee alongside self employment). 

tizerbelle

Kai77 said:

I thought I needed to keep a record of it and also so that my accountant can have a full picture of employee vs self employed income for the year. I have always been asked to provide P60s by accountants in previous years (again, I've always been an employee alongside self employment). 

Accountants like P60s as they make their life easier which means they don't have to think!  Not having a P60 is not the end of the world they are making it out to be.   A P60 is just a summary of what has happened in the PAYE tax year

Keep your final payslip for 23/24 or even better all payslips issued for 23/24 in case you/they want to double check any statutory payments / NI / pensions deductions - that will give them all your earnings for the year but they may have to kickstart their grey cells and think creatively / use a calculator for a change!  Heaven forbid they may have to work for the fees you pay them!

pecunianonolet

How would this situation be handled?

You are employed by a third party company as the company you work for doesn't have a legal entity in the UK. Your employment contract is with the third party company and they handle all payroll and HR matters. 

Now the company you actually work for establishes a UK entity. Your employment with the third party company comes to an end on 31st March.

Your new employment contract is now directly with the company you did work for all along and states a start date of 1st April. Third party company issues P45 with leaving date 31st March. 

The new company you now directly work for registers an employment start date with HMRC on 6th April (1st April start date as per employment contract). 

On 30th of April you receive your normal salary from the new employer for the whole month but with an emergency tax code. New employer refuses to issue a P60 claiming you have the P45 from the third party employer and since they not have you as employed by 5th of April, they don't have to issue you a P60. You not received any further pay between 31st march and 5th April so P45 numbers are for the full year.

In May you phone up HMRC to submit your pension contributions for the previous tax year to claim tax relief and get told HMRC hasn't received any real time data.

Is the employer at fault by submitting an incorrect start date to HMRC and should have provided a P60 (even if the numbers are identical)? 

HMRC now treats it as there was a 5 day gap in employment when in fact there wasn't a gap.