Removal of some Pd Rights, no one from the council seems to know anything

Cellardoor93

Hi I wondered if you could offer advice or tell me who I could seek advice from ie a solicitor etc. Having abit of a nightmare with my newbuild. Our garden hasn't been levelled out properly by the builders at all so all the bottom of the garden is lower as its a slope, and no grass grows because of how wet it gets, full of mud and netting from the original turf so it's really dangerous for my toddler.

So we are on with decking. The decking is less than 300mm from the highest ground level. The highest point it goes up at the back where the slope is is 500mm. The lowest is 150mm.

I am wanting to put a shed/ summerhouse or green house on top of the decking. Shed would be less than 2.5m tall.

I have looked today and it says our Permitted development rights have been removed. I called the council and they told me to look at the link that was under where it said they had been removed so I did. It's the planning permission for the original estate plan. It says. No development included in classes A, D and E of part 1 and Class A of Part 2 of Schedule 2 to that Order shall be carried out without the prior written consent of the Local Planning Authority. 

Does that mean that as long as it meets conditions from class E and doesn't go into anything from class E part 1 I will be ok? As surely if it meant E as a whole it would say No development included in classes A, D and E. 

The council are telling me I need full planning permission but the wording of this makes me think originally it meant  they will allow class E as long as it doesn't meet the conditions in E part 1?

Does anyone else read it like that too?

Thanks

GrumpyDil

Nope.

Look at schedule 2 part 1 and anything which would normally be permitted under class A, D and E is not automatically permitted so would need a planning application.

And the same for Schedule 2, part 2 class A. 

Section62

Cellardoor93 said:

...

I have looked today and it says our Permitted development rights have been removed. I called the council and they told me to look at the link that was under where it said they had been removed so I did. It's the planning permission for the original estate plan. It says. No development included in classes A, D and E of part 1 and Class A of Part 2 of Schedule 2 to that Order shall be carried out without the prior written consent of the Local Planning Authority. 

Does that mean that as long as it meets conditions from class E and doesn't go into anything from class E part 1 I will be ok? As surely if it meant E as a whole it would say No development included in classes A, D and E. 

The council are telling me I need full planning permission but the wording of this makes me think originally it meant  they will allow class E as long as it doesn't meet the conditions in E part 1?

Does anyone else read it like that too?

The wording isn't as clear as it could be, but rather than there being a "part 1" and "part 2" of "Class E" what the Order has is multiple parts (20), each of which is sub-divided into classes.  I.e. Part 1 Class E is entirely separate to Part 2 Class E.

What the consent is doing is removing rights under Part 1 (Development within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse) Classes A, D and E, and separately removing rights under Part 2 (Minor operations) Class A.

Think of it as if the "parts" represent chapters in a book, and the "classes" as paragraphs within a chapter.

Cellardoor93

Thanks you've made it clearer for me. I'm so upset I will have to put in pp but I have no idea where to start drawing elevations and plans. I hope it doesn't get refused. I just want a greenhouse or shed of some kind

Section62

Cellardoor93 said:

Thanks you've made it clearer for me. I'm so upset I will have to put in pp but I have no idea where to start drawing elevations and plans. I hope it doesn't get refused. I just want a greenhouse or shed of some kind

'Householder' applications are cheaper and can be more straightforward than full developer applications, so don't get too upset about it.

One option is to check the council's (and other councils) planning application system for householder applications which are for similar alterations and then use these as a guide for what you need to do yourself.  So long as the planning officer can understand what you are proposing it is usually Ok to do simple sketch diagrams... you don't need to invest in CAD software.  If you are changing ground levels then a 'cross section' diagram is often the easiest way of showing what you want to do.

One of the reasons for wanting drawings is so there is a record on file of what has been approved - so show measurements of distances and heights, both of existing features and what you are proposing.  There's usually no need for minute detail of everything, only that which matters to the decision and if enforcement was later needed.

FreeBear

To be honest, I think you might have problems getting PP for a shed on top of the decking. The overall height of the structure would be measured from the natural soil level, so you'd need to account for the decking height.

Cellardoor93

FreeBear said:

To be honest, I think you might have problems getting PP for a shed on top of the decking. The overall height of the structure would be measured from the natural soil level, so you'd need to account for the decking height.

The 2.5m is including the decking. It is measured from highest ground level from the soil  

Cellardoor93

Section62 said:

Cellardoor93 said:

Thanks you've made it clearer for me. I'm so upset I will have to put in pp but I have no idea where to start drawing elevations and plans. I hope it doesn't get refused. I just want a greenhouse or shed of some kind

'Householder' applications are cheaper and can be more straightforward than full developer applications, so don't get too upset about it.

One option is to check the council's (and other councils) planning application system for householder applications which are for similar alterations and then use these as a guide for what you need to do yourself.  So long as the planning officer can understand what you are proposing it is usually Ok to do simple sketch diagrams... you don't need to invest in CAD software.  If you are changing ground levels then a 'cross section' diagram is often the easiest way of showing what you want to do.

One of the reasons for wanting drawings is so there is a record on file of what has been approved - so show measurements of distances and heights, both of existing features and what you are proposing.  There's usually no need for minute detail of everything, only that which matters to the decision and if enforcement was later needed.

Thank you got this. Upon a quick look it doesn't look like they do householder applications

Section62

Cellardoor93 said:

Section62 said:

Cellardoor93 said:

Thanks you've made it clearer for me. I'm so upset I will have to put in pp but I have no idea where to start drawing elevations and plans. I hope it doesn't get refused. I just want a greenhouse or shed of some kind

'Householder' applications are cheaper and can be more straightforward than full developer applications, so don't get too upset about it.

One option is to check the council's (and other councils) planning application system for householder applications which are for similar alterations and then use these as a guide for what you need to do yourself.  So long as the planning officer can understand what you are proposing it is usually Ok to do simple sketch diagrams... you don't need to invest in CAD software.  If you are changing ground levels then a 'cross section' diagram is often the easiest way of showing what you want to do.

One of the reasons for wanting drawings is so there is a record on file of what has been approved - so show measurements of distances and heights, both of existing features and what you are proposing.  There's usually no need for minute detail of everything, only that which matters to the decision and if enforcement was later needed.

Thank you got this. Upon a quick look it doesn't look like they do householder applications

They should do.... it is a statutory process within the planning system.  There are some types of application which have to be 'full', but nothing you've said indicates that you couldn't do this as a householder application.  Perhaps query it with the planning department?

gm0

We have this situation.  One advantage (in some areas anyway) was/is that PP applications are often free for works that would normally fall within the scope of Permitted Development.  But which now need PP solely due to the revoked PD. 

One disadavantage though is that your full planning application for some minor thing is really priority 99 within the planning department.  Which is true - they have bigger developments, whole estates or house builder applications that they should be looking at. 

But having forced us to do this.  We need to apply unless we JFDI and accept a future conveyancer may pick up the revoked PD ands say - where is your PP for this.   Of course for small things or a shed - this is a viable approach.  For extensions or more significant costs.  It's not. 

Despite the priorities - they *need* to periodically sign the small fry things off as low risk.  And move on. 

That unfortunately is not a typical planning department mentality.  Signing things off is taking a risk.  Kicking for touch.  Agree to defer, or we will refuse you on "random ground of the week".  Reset the clock.  Rinse and repeat.

Mine took *12 months* for an utterly trivial thing.  And I had to do two planning cycles as they put an utterly insane condition on it the first time.  The office junior who was depriving a village somewhere of its idiot.  Was sacked shortly after my application cycle.  But his fellow "senior" planners were just chucking random stuff over the wall each time they approached a legally must respond deadline and the idiot child asked them what to do. 

Since my last application they have suspended pre-application surgeries and all householder contact - never restarted since Covid.  And essentially the LA website says - if you are householder - stick it on the planning portal if you like and wait.  But we are focused on housebuilders.  So good luck.  And no - you can't talk to us.

FreeBear

gm0 said: But having forced us to do this.  We need to apply unless we JFDI and accept a future conveyancer may pick up the revoked PD ands say - where is your PP for this.   Of course for small things or a shed - this is a viable approach.  For extensions or more significant costs.  It's not.

Now that the enforcement window for PP & BR breaches has been extended to 10 years, just doing it and hope that no one notices is now much more risky. For a temporary structure like a shed that could  be dismantled in an hour or two, the penalties would be minimal if the OP went ahead without PP.