If I take the LED light off, will the power still work?

Jemma01

ThisIsWeird said:

This is weird, Jemma - the charging socket should be live regardless of whether the light is on or off. 
The light has a wee pull cord, yes? 
If your fitting is really designed to charge only if the light is also on, then it's a bizarre design, and frankly needs taking outside and stamping on.
Are you certain this is the case?
If so, I suggest a different unit. 

Yes, the light is a pull cord.

It is an annoying design 🤣 that there is no second switch to separate the two; I saw a few for £25 with two switches. But since I don't need that light at all, I'm happy for it to be gone. Pleased that the unit still works without the bulb.

Jemma01

maman said:

I'm surprised too that the light doesn't have a pull cord or switch to turn it off. Why, for example, would you want it on during the day? 🤔

You've solved it for now @Jemma01 but I'd definitely ask the electrician when he comes to explain how it's supposed to work and change it if you can't have the toothbrush charger without the light. 

It is odd, as even for a shaver you wouldn't need the light on during the day !
I think it was installed since the house was built in 2009.

Money_Grabber13579

It looks to be the same (or very similar) to the light I have in my bathroom and can confirm that the pull cord operates both the light and the shaver terminal.

ThisIsWeird

I didn't expect that, but I can now see it might make sense.
Normal stand-alone shaver sockets have very sizeable isolating transformers inside them, so that the shaver socket isn't 'live' in relation to 'earth'; you shouldn't receive a shock if you accidentally touch a terminal (only if you touch both, and that will hurt rather than kill you).
The large size also means it has large coils, and this will have such a commensurately high resistance that it can be left permanently powered up - which they are.
Such a large trannie wouldn't fit inside that light fitting, so I suspect no isolating transformer is used at all, in which case that light fitting shaving socket would be truly 'live' when switched on. It probably wouldn't confirm to regs without that switch.
Slightly risky, I guess, so more care and awareness is required.
Or, if it still does contain an isolating transformer, it'll be a smaller one, which will therefore likely draw more power, and that will be whenever it's 'on', regardless of whether anything is plugged in. So, you wouldn't want it permanently on - it would consume more power, and likely even become warm.
That's my guess, and I don't which which, if any, of these scenarios is correct - for instance, it could even be that the socket itself has a switch in it, activated when shaver is inserted. But, until you know - please ask your sparky! - always turn it off after use even if there's no light bulb fitted.

Anyone know if current shaver sockets use better technology than always-on isolating transformers?

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

Normal stand-alone shaver sockets have very sizeable isolating transformers inside them, so that the shaver socket isn't 'live' in relation to 'earth'; you shouldn't receive a shock if you accidentally touch a terminal (only if you touch both, and that will hurt rather than kill you).

The output is still 230/240V AC which is more than enough to kill you.

An isolating transformer doesn't turn bad electricity into 'safe' electricity, all it does is remove the connection (aka 'reference') to earth. The normal supply is referenced to earth, meaning you can get a shock by touching something which is 'live' and something which is in contact with the mass of the earth - for example a towel rail or radiator.

Because people using bathrooms often have wet skin (which is far more conductive) it is safer to have an isolated supply because it lowers the risk of someone getting a shock from touching something which needs to be earthed (taps, towel rails, radiators) whilst holding a faulty shaver/cord.

Touching both outputs from a mains transformer - even an isolating one - is incredibly dangerous and may result in death.

ThisIsWeird said:

The large size also means it has large coils, and this will have such a commensurately high resistance that it can be left permanently powered up - which they are.

It isn't primarily about (electrical) resistance.  It is the electromagnetic characteristics of a transformer which determine how much energy it consumes when there is no load on the secondary - a badly designed transformer which is less efficient will consume more power and generate more heat in no-load situations.  It is easier to make transformers more efficient if they are larger (particularly the magnetic circuit) which may explain the difference you've observed?

ThisIsWeird said:

Such a large trannie wouldn't fit inside that light fitting, so I suspect no isolating transformer is used at all, in which case that light fitting shaving socket would be truly 'live' when switched on. It probably wouldn't confirm to regs without that switch.
Slightly risky, I guess, so more care and awareness is required.
Or, if it still does contain an isolating transformer, it'll be a smaller one, which will therefore likely draw more power, and that will be whenever it's 'on', regardless of whether anything is plugged in. So, you wouldn't want it permanently on - it would consume more power, and likely even become warm.

Not entirely clear from the picture, but it looks like that fitting has a 115/120V output as well.... in which case there should be a transformer inside it, and hopefully an isolating one.

On your final point I'd go further and suggest it would be better to plug something which needs a long charging time into a socket in another room (using an appropriate adaptor) rather than having the unnecessary losses and potentially greater risk of charging it in a bathroom via an isolating transformer.  Shaver sockets were intended for shavers being used for short periods of time whilst someone was present.  Although one might be fine when used to charge something else for a long period of time, I personally wouldn't take the risk.

ThisIsWeird

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Normal stand-alone shaver sockets have very sizeable isolating transformers inside them, so that the shaver socket isn't 'live' in relation to 'earth'; you shouldn't receive a shock if you accidentally touch a terminal (only if you touch both, and that will hurt rather than kill you).

The output is still 230/240V AC which is more than enough to kill you.

An isolating transformer doesn't turn bad electricity into 'safe' electricity, all it does is remove the connection (aka 'reference') to earth. The normal supply is referenced to earth, meaning you can get a shock by touching something which is 'live' and something which is in contact with the mass of the earth - for example a towel rail or radiator.

Because people using bathrooms often have wet skin (which is far more conductive) it is safer to have an isolated supply because it lowers the risk of someone getting a shock from touching something which needs to be earthed (taps, towel rails, radiators) whilst holding a faulty shaver/cord.

Touching both outputs from a mains transformer - even an isolating one - is incredibly dangerous and may result in death.

ThisIsWeird said:

The large size also means it has large coils, and this will have such a commensurately high resistance that it can be left permanently powered up - which they are.

It isn't primarily about (electrical) resistance.  It is the electromagnetic characteristics of a transformer which determine how much energy it consumes when there is no load on the secondary - a badly designed transformer which is less efficient will consume more power and generate more heat in no-load situations.  It is easier to make transformers more efficient if they are larger (particularly the magnetic circuit) which may explain the difference you've observed?

ThisIsWeird said:

Such a large trannie wouldn't fit inside that light fitting, so I suspect no isolating transformer is used at all, in which case that light fitting shaving socket would be truly 'live' when switched on. It probably wouldn't confirm to regs without that switch.
Slightly risky, I guess, so more care and awareness is required.
Or, if it still does contain an isolating transformer, it'll be a smaller one, which will therefore likely draw more power, and that will be whenever it's 'on', regardless of whether anything is plugged in. So, you wouldn't want it permanently on - it would consume more power, and likely even become warm.

Not entirely clear from the picture, but it looks like that fitting has a 115/120V output as well.... in which case there should be a transformer inside it, and hopefully an isolating one.

On your final point I'd go further and suggest it would be better to plug something which needs a long charging time into a socket in another room (using an appropriate adaptor) rather than having the unnecessary losses and potentially greater risk of charging it in a bathroom via an isolating transformer.  Shaver sockets were intended for shavers being used for short periods of time whilst someone was present.  Although one might be fine when used to charge something else for a long period of time, I personally wouldn't take the risk.

It won't kill you as it'll only be across a thumb.
Unless you make a habit of also bringing your big toe up to one of the terminals.
Good points about the other stuff.
On your end point - I personally wouldn't be concerned about leaving a toothbrush or rechargeable shaver plugged in unattended, as the unit will not be expected to be used for only short periods. "Warning - use this light for 5 minutes max".

Coveredinbees!!!!

Jemma01 said:

Coveredinbees!!!! said:

If you don't know what you're doing leave it alone

I use a shaver adapter that plugs into a 13 amp socket in my bedroom to charge my electric tooth brush.

Well some people like to learn new things in life, and others don't 😅

Would you have said that if you had got an electric shock ?

Albermarle

Jemma01 said:

maman said:

I'm surprised too that the light doesn't have a pull cord or switch to turn it off. Why, for example, would you want it on during the day? 🤔

You've solved it for now @Jemma01 but I'd definitely ask the electrician when he comes to explain how it's supposed to work and change it if you can't have the toothbrush charger without the light. 

It is odd, as even for a shaver you wouldn't need the light on during the day !
I think it was installed since the house was built in 2009.

Just buy one of these and charge the toothbrush in another room.
Pifco Shaver Adaptor | Wilko

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Normal stand-alone shaver sockets have very sizeable isolating transformers inside them, so that the shaver socket isn't 'live' in relation to 'earth'; you shouldn't receive a shock if you accidentally touch a terminal (only if you touch both, and that will hurt rather than kill you).

The output is still 230/240V AC which is more than enough to kill you.

An isolating transformer doesn't turn bad electricity into 'safe' electricity, all it does is remove the connection (aka 'reference') to earth. The normal supply is referenced to earth, meaning you can get a shock by touching something which is 'live' and something which is in contact with the mass of the earth - for example a towel rail or radiator.

Because people using bathrooms often have wet skin (which is far more conductive) it is safer to have an isolated supply because it lowers the risk of someone getting a shock from touching something which needs to be earthed (taps, towel rails, radiators) whilst holding a faulty shaver/cord.

Touching both outputs from a mains transformer - even an isolating one - is incredibly dangerous and may result in death.

ThisIsWeird said:

The large size also means it has large coils, and this will have such a commensurately high resistance that it can be left permanently powered up - which they are.

It isn't primarily about (electrical) resistance.  It is the electromagnetic characteristics of a transformer which determine how much energy it consumes when there is no load on the secondary - a badly designed transformer which is less efficient will consume more power and generate more heat in no-load situations.  It is easier to make transformers more efficient if they are larger (particularly the magnetic circuit) which may explain the difference you've observed?

ThisIsWeird said:

Such a large trannie wouldn't fit inside that light fitting, so I suspect no isolating transformer is used at all, in which case that light fitting shaving socket would be truly 'live' when switched on. It probably wouldn't confirm to regs without that switch.
Slightly risky, I guess, so more care and awareness is required.
Or, if it still does contain an isolating transformer, it'll be a smaller one, which will therefore likely draw more power, and that will be whenever it's 'on', regardless of whether anything is plugged in. So, you wouldn't want it permanently on - it would consume more power, and likely even become warm.

Not entirely clear from the picture, but it looks like that fitting has a 115/120V output as well.... in which case there should be a transformer inside it, and hopefully an isolating one.

On your final point I'd go further and suggest it would be better to plug something which needs a long charging time into a socket in another room (using an appropriate adaptor) rather than having the unnecessary losses and potentially greater risk of charging it in a bathroom via an isolating transformer.  Shaver sockets were intended for shavers being used for short periods of time whilst someone was present.  Although one might be fine when used to charge something else for a long period of time, I personally wouldn't take the risk.

It won't kill you as it'll only be across a thumb.
Unless you make a habit of also bringing your big toe up to one of the terminals.

You are confusing what can and can't kill with relative levels of risk.  An arm-to-arm or arm-to-leg shock is potentially more likely to kill you (everything else being equal), but that isn't the same as saying that contact with only one body part (and you didn't mention the thumb in your previous post) will only hurt rather than kill.

The point - simply - is that mains-voltage is always dangerous.  An isolating transformer reduces risk, it doesn't eliminate it.

ThisIsWeird said:

On your end point - I personally wouldn't be concerned about leaving a toothbrush or rechargeable shaver plugged in unattended, as the unit will not be expected to be used for only short periods. "Warning - use this light for 5 minutes max".

How do you know what design assumptions were made by the designer?  Many items have a duty cycle without that being stated in the form "Warning - use this light for 5 minutes max" in big letters in a location visible to the user.  A shaver point may have been designed for use with shavers only, and possibly before rechargeable ones were common.  Few people have a need to shave with an electric razor for (say) 15 minutes and therefore it wouldn't have been unreasonable for the designer to work on the basis of (say) 15 minutes max use before a period of non-use to allow cooling down.  Achieving a compact design (for example in the kind of fitting the OP has) may have made such design assumptions more necessary.

Note also that there is a difference between using the light for a longer duration, and applying an (unknown) load which might exceed the design rating of the transformer for an extended period of time. Leaving the light on with nothing plugged into the shaver socket is probably Ok.

ThisIsWeird

Section62 said:

You are confusing what can and can't kill with relative levels of risk.  An arm-to-arm or arm-to-leg shock is potentially more likely to kill you (everything else being equal), but that isn't the same as saying that contact with only one body part (and you didn't mention the thumb in your previous post) will only hurt rather than kill.

The point - simply - is that mains-voltage is always dangerous.  An isolating transformer reduces risk, it doesn't eliminate it.

ThisIsWeird said:

On your end point - I personally wouldn't be concerned about leaving a toothbrush or rechargeable shaver plugged in unattended, as the unit will not be expected to be used for only short periods. "Warning - use this light for 5 minutes max".

How do you know what design assumptions were made by the designer?  Many items have a duty cycle without that being stated in the form "Warning - use this light for 5 minutes max" in big letters in a location visible to the user.  A shaver point may have been designed for use with shavers only, and possibly before rechargeable ones were common.  Few people have a need to shave with an electric razor for (say) 15 minutes and therefore it wouldn't have been unreasonable for the designer to work on the basis of (say) 15 minutes max use before a period of non-use to allow cooling down.  Achieving a compact design (for example in the kind of fitting the OP has) may have made such design assumptions more necessary.

Note also that there is a difference between using the light for a longer duration, and applying an (unknown) load which might exceed the design rating of the transformer for an extended period of time. Leaving the light on with nothing plugged into the shaver socket is probably Ok.

Would you believe me if I said that I suspected you'd almost certainly react when I made the flippant 'hurt' comment'? It's true.

Of course mains voltages are highly dangerous, and those well below. You won't, tho', get an 'earthed' mains shock from an isolating trannie. It will hurt if your oversized thumb happens to span both shaver pins as you insert the plug - a near impossible scenario. And it'll certainly be very dangerous if you use both hands to insert the shaver plug, one finger of each on a separate pin.

But, seriously, folk ain't going to do this. They certainly aren't going to try it for fun having read my "it'll only hurt" comment.

Anyhoo, to even assume there could be a duty cycle for a bathroom light/shaver fitting is bonkers. "How do I know?", you ask. I don't. But it would - of course - be bonkers. And a mains-powered shaver takes a far larger current than a rechargeable toothbrush.