Have just started a fixed-rate tarriff with British Gas, for electricity - their get-out clause

quartzz

doodling said:

Hi,

quartzz said:

MattMattMattUK said:

quartzz said:

Gerry1 said:

The government can alter the VAT rate and add environmental taxes.  Would you expect BG not to pass them on?

well, there's some ambiguous variables if ever there were

"our tarriff is fixed - unless the cost goes up or there's an additional charge"

in the case of the tarriff I've chosen, the kWh per hour I would imagine is standard across the board. it's the standing charge (47p/day) which got me to sign the contract

Scot_39 said:

Even BG would surely realise they would suffer reputational and maybe mass customer losses - if raised prices when others honored their fixes.

you would er......hope

You seem to fail to understand that the energy suppliers could be obligated to change prices by the government, they do not have an option under those circumstances. Just as you can place a pre-order with a retailer but if the government changes the VAT rate before the order is complete then they would have to apply the new rate.

If the government abolished VAT on energy bills would you expect your energy prices to stay the same, rather than go down? 

No business is immune to legislative changes, no contract can override tax legislation, no contract can override government mandated changes.

read my comments please. thanks.

"If the government abolished VAT on energy bills". I realise you are giving a completely hypothetical situation. and, as I think you would agree, it's just that. hypothetical

But, so is your concern.  You can't rationally claim that a change in VAT is hypothetical whilst also claiming that your concern regarding BG putting up their prices due to legislative or regulatory action is not.  Unless of course, you can provide an example...

tbh I'm getting bored of this. please read specifically my comment above this reply. obviously someone else who is bored and pedantic is upvoting you....

doodling

Hi,

quartzz said:

doodling said:

Hi,

quartzz said:

MattMattMattUK said:

quartzz said:

Gerry1 said:

The government can alter the VAT rate and add environmental taxes.  Would you expect BG not to pass them on?

well, there's some ambiguous variables if ever there were

"our tarriff is fixed - unless the cost goes up or there's an additional charge"

in the case of the tarriff I've chosen, the kWh per hour I would imagine is standard across the board. it's the standing charge (47p/day) which got me to sign the contract

Scot_39 said:

Even BG would surely realise they would suffer reputational and maybe mass customer losses - if raised prices when others honored their fixes.

you would er......hope

You seem to fail to understand that the energy suppliers could be obligated to change prices by the government, they do not have an option under those circumstances. Just as you can place a pre-order with a retailer but if the government changes the VAT rate before the order is complete then they would have to apply the new rate.

If the government abolished VAT on energy bills would you expect your energy prices to stay the same, rather than go down? 

No business is immune to legislative changes, no contract can override tax legislation, no contract can override government mandated changes.

read my comments please. thanks.

"If the government abolished VAT on energy bills". I realise you are giving a completely hypothetical situation. and, as I think you would agree, it's just that. hypothetical

But, so is your concern.  You can't rationally claim that a change in VAT is hypothetical whilst also claiming that your concern regarding BG putting up their prices due to legislative or regulatory action is not.  Unless of course, you can provide an example...

tbh I'm getting bored of this. please read specifically my comment above this reply. obviously someone else who is bored and pedantic is upvoting you....

I have re-read your posts and I think you are trying to tell us that things that are advertised as fixed may not be under some unlikely circumstances.  I accept that as a fact of life - odd things can happen in unusual situations.  BG are saying that if someone with the appropriate authority takes an action which forces a change in prices then their prices will change.  Maybe I am cynical but I am completely unsurprised by that.

It feels.like this thread is based on you being surprised by something that is obvious to me.  That is not a criticism - I make no comment on which of us is most representative of the general public, nor am I attempting to assign any level of validity to one position or the other.

Is there another point I am missing?

Scot_39

quartzz said:

and......the rest. thanks.
I'm not personally familiar with the example you gave in your last paragraph

The description for those on fixes that had rates above govt EPG rates - see under

"If you were on a fixed rate tariff"

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-bills-support/energy-price-guarantee-up-until-30-june-2023

Therefore some who were not dropped out of fixes (the only person I know where the Q4 22 discount didn't take them to EPG pricing - who signed up before EPG announced in Sep - as the govt wording and example as I understand it as per example below - was actually released fee from their fix and paid the c33p +/- regional variations pricing.

So not to annoy you but as a hypothetical example - if someone had fixed electric at say 55p (bearing in mind actual Ofgem rates went to nearer 70p in some regions in Jan 23 at the full iirc £4279 cap).

Would have received the discounts - max c17p - c 33p -  c18p over the three relevant quarters - subject to EPG rate floor on discounted rate - so at 55p would have got 22p discount to lower to EPG 33p rate.

So if fix was 55p - paying c38p, c33p - the actual EPG cap rate - then c37p - rather than the fixed price of 55p agreed.

So potentially some may well have still paid more than EPG rates - but still a lot less than their agreed fix price.

At least in Q4 22 and Q2 23 - but most would likely have hit the floor in Q1 23 when the discount was near double at c33p/kWh.

I do seem to remember their were a few posts here from some who did think would actually pay higher than cap when the discounts were smaller when announced - but cannot remember nearly 2 years later - their actual fix rates and how much extra - if any - they actually paid.

MattMattMattUK

quartzz said:

then you have not read my comments, and neither has the person who has upvoted you.

I'll try again and I'll probably repeat myself.

British Gas Homepage, large letters: "this is the fixed rate tarriff information"

my overactive imagination: "I'm sure there are conditions where this price can change [read, increase] buried in the TC's, and I'm sure that every other supplier has the same get out clause in their TC's.

I select the tarriff, with this in the back of my mind.

I receive the welcome email from BG, and in plain text in the welcome email, is an ambiguous disclaimer which says "there may be factors which cause price changes [assume: increase]"

I am really not sure what is incredibly complicated about this. bill received possibly > tarriff information when contract taken out.

hope that helps.

I have read your comments, however you seem to be under the misapprehension that reading your comments means agreeing with them, it does not.

It is not suprising costs can be changed if legislation or regulation requires them to, indeed they do not even need to state it because a contract cannot override law or statutory regulation. 

daveyjp

Most commercial contracts have a similar clause, you need to cover it.

 For example if at the budget VAT had increased or new energy tax had been introduced?  Without that clause the provider would have to pick up the bill.

MattMattMattUK

daveyjp said:

Most commercial contracts have a similar clause, you need to cover it.

 For example if at the budget VAT had increased or new energy tax had been introduced?  Without that clause the provider would have to pick up the bill.

That depends on the terms and conditions or contract. Most contracts are written as "with VAT at the applicable rate" type clauses, not a fixed price with VAT inclusive regardless of changes to the VAT rate, even if the headline price is quoted as £X per unit. It can be slightly different if buying in a shop, but that is not relevant here. 

quartzz

MattMattMattUK said:

quartzz said:

then you have not read my comments, and neither has the person who has upvoted you.

I'll try again and I'll probably repeat myself.

British Gas Homepage, large letters: "this is the fixed rate tarriff information"

my overactive imagination: "I'm sure there are conditions where this price can change [read, increase] buried in the TC's, and I'm sure that every other supplier has the same get out clause in their TC's.

I select the tarriff, with this in the back of my mind.

I receive the welcome email from BG, and in plain text in the welcome email, is an ambiguous disclaimer which says "there may be factors which cause price changes [assume: increase]"

I am really not sure what is incredibly complicated about this. bill received possibly > tarriff information when contract taken out.

hope that helps.

I have read your comments, however you seem to be under the misapprehension that reading your comments means agreeing with them, it does not.

It is not suprising costs can be changed if legislation or regulation requires them to, indeed they do not even need to state it because a contract cannot override law or statutory regulation. 

this conversation is going nowhere. in an ideal world I don't intend to reply to this thread any more.

someone else reading the initial content of this thread may or may not find it useful. fwiw, I've edited the original post (added to it) which might or might not mean something

daveyjp - indeed. that's what I said, and (I think?) you're repeating what someone else said. described as suitably vague "external factors"

doodling - I'm basically saying that the tarriff was loudly declared as fixed in large sales letters the sales text, and [without reading the TC's in detail], I suspected that there would be a get-out clause saying the billed price might be higher, which (in plain text after I'd signed up) there was