TV. Caught in middle..Sony vs domestic & general

lost_consumer

Hello came here for some advice and help with my rights 

i brought a Sony tv 6 years ago from John Lewis retailer that had 5 year warranty. Unfortunately after it expired the tv broke down. But fortunately I had additional cover I had taken out with domestic and general to cover the tv

d&g deemed the repair not economical and replaced the tv for a new one. They also registered this new tv with Sony for the 1 year warranty and send us the email.

4 months later I am having issues with my Sony tv. I thought it would be straight forward I contacted Sony to exercise the warranty but they are refusing and giving me run around. They are saying that they need a vat receipt showing the purchase. I asked d&g and they gave me a letter which they said is “proof of purchase” it basically shows they provided me the tv for £0 as a replacement.

however Sony are rejecting this saying they need a vat receipt and that this is stated in there t&c’s. They said they can only provide me a chargeable repair. 

D&G are saying “Unfortunately, as we are not a retailer, under the insurance plan we cannot provide a VAT receipt”

Sony are putting it back on them and saying “Moreover, please be advised that this TV was not sold by Sony to yourself, so any consumer right claims should be addressed to the retailer, as Sony is the manufacturer, and was never part of your sales deal”.

I am caught in the middle and have spent many hours on phone and email without luck.

Any help please? ThanksHello came here for some advice and help with my rights 

i brought a Sony tv 6 years ago from John Lewis retailer that had 5 year warranty. Unfortunately after it expired the tv broke down. But fortunately I had additional cover I had taken out with domestic and general to cover the tv

d&g deemed the repair not economical and replaced the tv for a new one. They also registered this new tv with Sony for the 1 year warranty and send us the email.

4 months later I am having issues with my Sony tv. I thought it would be straight forward I contacted Sony to exercise the warranty but they are refusing and giving me run around. They are saying that they need a vat receipt showing the purchase. I asked d&g and they gave me a letter which they said is “proof of purchase” it basically shows they provided me the tv for £0 as a replacement.

however Sony are rejecting this saying they need a vat receipt and that this is stated in there t&c’s. They said they can only provide me a chargeable repair. 

D&G are saying “Unfortunately, as we are not a retailer, under the insurance plan we cannot provide a VAT receipt”

Sony are putting it back on them and saying “Moreover, please be advised that this TV was not sold by Sony to yourself, so any consumer right claims should be addressed to the retailer, as Sony is the manufacturer, and was never part of your sales deal”.

I am caught in the middle and have spent many hours on phone and email without luck.

any help please? Thanks

Okell

If the T&Cs of the Sony warranty say that you need to produce a VAT receipt... then you need to produce a VAT receipt.

A warranty is governed solely by its T&Cs.  There is no law that overrides those terms or that says they have to be fair.

Have you checked what the T&Cs of the warranty actually say?  Are replacement items provided by third party insurers even covered by the warranty?

I wonder whether, as D&G supplied the TV, they are liable to you under the Consumer Rights Act.  But I honestly have no idea whether that legislation even covers a transaction like this.

Other posters may have a better idea...

(This is probably a stupid question but I presume you did not buy cover for this replacement TV from D&G?)

A_Geordie

I don't think I have seen warranty terms require the production of a VAT receipt before so that's unusual. 

The starting point is that the contract of sale would be between Sony and D&G, so you would not be privy to the contract or have any rights unless the contract terms allowed for third party rights.

Second, not all warranties are transferable so do you need to check the warranty terms. If the warranty is transferable then the warranty terms will usually stipulate how it is to be transferred. This can be automatically as soon as you come into possession of the goods, but sometimes you might have to notify the manufacturer the goods have changed hands and update any personal details. 

The Sony website has extended warranty terms for TVs (Repair Protection Plan Terms). Some notable clauses are:

Clause 1.6 says that you will be provided with a document detailing the warranty and this is needed as proof for making any claim. It also says you may be asked for proof of purchase of the product. 

Clause 7 explains that Sony will accept the benefit of the warranty applies to third parties if they have consented.

Clause 10 confirms the warranty is transferable if you comply with clause 11.

Clause 11 explains how you contact Sony for a claim or to update details. 

Assuming these are the correct warranty terms, it would seem you would need the warranty confirmation as well as D&G's proof of purchase from Sony (not that a confirmation letter that the product was given to you for £0). The requirement specifically a VAT receipt does not appear to align with the warranty terms as it says only proof of purchase is required. 

Absent any of the above, you would have to find out if D&G agreed with Sony that you would benefit from the extended warranty to rely on clause 1.7. Sounds unlikely but I'm not sure the standard customer service advisor would have that sort of information, possibly the person who handled the claim.

Finally, warranties are typically in addition to your statutory rights so they are not an automatic right. That said sometimes companies will include terms of the contract that they will pass along any warranties they obtained from the manufacturer. Check the D&G terms, if this is the case then they could be in breach of contract and you could potentially sue them for repair or replacement of the TV.

If there is nothing to suggest warranties are passed along, I guess it would be up to D&G to initiate the warranty claim but again, only if they are obliged under the terms of the contract between you and D&G.

After that, I think you are buggered*

* Not really thought about it, but there may be the potentially that the supply of a new TV (or even refurbished) would bring the replacement TV within the scope of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as to satisfactory quality, fit for purposes etc. D&G would be responsible for any issues relating to that TV.

born_again

lost_consumer said:

Hello came here for some advice and help with my rights 

i brought a Sony tv 6 years ago from John Lewis retailer that had 5 year warranty. Unfortunately after it expired the tv broke down. But fortunately I had additional cover I had taken out with domestic and general to cover the tv

d&g deemed the repair not economical and replaced the tv for a new one. They also registered this new tv with Sony for the 1 year warranty and send us the email.

4 months later I am having issues with my Sony tv. I thought it would be straight forward I contacted Sony to exercise the warranty but they are refusing and giving me run around. They are saying that they need a vat receipt showing the purchase. I asked d&g and they gave me a letter which they said is “proof of purchase” it basically shows they provided me the tv for £0 as a replacement.

however Sony are rejecting this saying they need a vat receipt and that this is stated in there t&c’s. They said they can only provide me a chargeable repair. 

D&G are saying “Unfortunately, as we are not a retailer, under the insurance plan we cannot provide a VAT receipt”

Sony are putting it back on them and saying “Moreover, please be advised that this TV was not sold by Sony to yourself, so any consumer right claims should be addressed to the retailer, as Sony is the manufacturer, and was never part of your sales deal”.

I am caught in the middle and have spent many hours on phone and email without luck.

Any help please? ThanksHello came here for some advice and help with my rights 

i brought a Sony tv 6 years ago from John Lewis retailer that had 5 year warranty. Unfortunately after it expired the tv broke down. But fortunately I had additional cover I had taken out with domestic and general to cover the tv

d&g deemed the repair not economical and replaced the tv for a new one. They also registered this new tv with Sony for the 1 year warranty and send us the email.

4 months later I am having issues with my Sony tv. I thought it would be straight forward I contacted Sony to exercise the warranty but they are refusing and giving me run around. They are saying that they need a vat receipt showing the purchase. I asked d&g and they gave me a letter which they said is “proof of purchase” it basically shows they provided me the tv for £0 as a replacement.

however Sony are rejecting this saying they need a vat receipt and that this is stated in there t&c’s. They said they can only provide me a chargeable repair. 

D&G are saying “Unfortunately, as we are not a retailer, under the insurance plan we cannot provide a VAT receipt”

Sony are putting it back on them and saying “Moreover, please be advised that this TV was not sold by Sony to yourself, so any consumer right claims should be addressed to the retailer, as Sony is the manufacturer, and was never part of your sales deal”.

I am caught in the middle and have spent many hours on phone and email without luck.

any help please? Thanks

How long is a normal Sony warranty?

Seem to remember another thread along same lines & as a ins replacement. 

sheramber

Did D&G buy the tv from Sony or from a retailer?

DullGreyGuy

lost_consumer said:

d&g deemed the repair not economical and replaced the tv for a new one. They also registered this new tv with Sony for the 1 year warranty and send us the email.

What does the email from D&G state? 

Ordinarily when you get an item replaced under warranty or insurance the existing warranty continues for its natural period rather than you getting a new X month warranty. 

lost_consumer said:
D&G are saying “Unfortunately, as we are not a retailer, under the insurance plan we cannot provide a VAT receipt”

They say it's insurance? The majority of what D&G sell isn't insurance but if they state what you have is insurance it opens up other potential complaint routes. 

PHK

A_Geordie said:

I don't think I have seen warranty terms require the production of a VAT receipt before so that's unusual. 

The starting point is that the contract of sale would be between Sony and D&G, so you would not be privy to the contract or have any rights unless the contract terms allowed for third party rights.

Second, not all warranties are transferable so do you need to check the warranty terms. If the warranty is transferable then the warranty terms will usually stipulate how it is to be transferred. This can be automatically as soon as you come into possession of the goods, but sometimes you might have to notify the manufacturer the goods have changed hands and update any personal details. 

The Sony website has extended warranty terms for TVs (Repair Protection Plan Terms). Some notable clauses are:

Clause 1.6 says that you will be provided with a document detailing the warranty and this is needed as proof for making any claim. It also says you may be asked for proof of purchase of the product. 

Clause 7 explains that Sony will accept the benefit of the warranty applies to third parties if they have consented.

Clause 10 confirms the warranty is transferable if you comply with clause 11.

Clause 11 explains how you contact Sony for a claim or to update details. 

Assuming these are the correct warranty terms, it would seem you would need the warranty confirmation as well as D&G's proof of purchase from Sony (not that a confirmation letter that the product was given to you for £0). The requirement specifically a VAT receipt does not appear to align with the warranty terms as it says only proof of purchase is required. 

Absent any of the above, you would have to find out if D&G agreed with Sony that you would benefit from the extended warranty to rely on clause 1.7. Sounds unlikely but I'm not sure the standard customer service advisor would have that sort of information, possibly the person who handled the claim.

Finally, warranties are typically in addition to your statutory rights so they are not an automatic right. That said sometimes companies will include terms of the contract that they will pass along any warranties they obtained from the manufacturer. Check the D&G terms, if this is the case then they could be in breach of contract and you could potentially sue them for repair or replacement of the TV.

If there is nothing to suggest warranties are passed along, I guess it would be up to D&G to initiate the warranty claim but again, only if they are obliged under the terms of the contract between you and D&G.

After that, I think you are buggered*

* Not really thought about it, but there may be the potentially that the supply of a new TV (or even refurbished) would bring the replacement TV within the scope of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as to satisfactory quality, fit for purposes etc. D&G would be responsible for any issues relating to that TV.

It may be helpful for you to know that when an insurer replaces an item, they don't go out and buy an item.

They use one of a number of services that suggest suitable replacements for the item to be repaired and a choice of supplier. These replacement items are supplied at a significant discount without warranty and an  insurer will provide the warranty to the end consumer.  Usually to the end of the warranty of the original item, or some other period as set out in the contract of insurance. 

The OPs case seems unusual. D&G do a mix of service plans and insurance.  If a service plan they will generally only make a contribution towards a replacement or do nothing at all if they can't repair. With something like a TV where the price of an equivalent has dropped, it may well be possible to obtain a replacement for the contribution amount. 

If an insurance then they will replace using one of the replacement services. 

A_Geordie

PHK said:

It may be helpful for you to know that when an insurer replaces an item, they don't go out and buy an item.

They use one of a number of services that suggest suitable replacements for the item to be repaired and a choice of supplier. These replacement items are supplied at a significant discount without warranty and an  insurer will provide the warranty to the end consumer.  Usually to the end of the warranty of the original item, or some other period as set out in the contract of insurance. 

The OPs case seems unusual. D&G do a mix of service plans and insurance.  If a service plan they will generally only make a contribution towards a replacement or do nothing at all if they can't repair. With something like a TV where the price of an equivalent has dropped, it may well be possible to obtain a replacement for the contribution amount. 

If an insurance then they will replace using one of the replacement services. 

Sure, I understand the concept but some insurance providers offer both repair and replacement of goods, usually a repair first unless it is not economical to do so then a replacement will be sought or failing that, the insured will be authorised to go out and buy one and claim the cost back - back in the day I know D&G offered a repair or replacement service but if they replaced the goods then the policy would automatically terminate after that,although I don't know if it is still the case today. 

Obviously we can only go off what the OP is saying and if the OP is being told an extended warranty has been registered, it wouldn't be unreasonable to rely on that information given by D&G unless we know otherwise i.e. seeing the D&G terms that were agreed. If it was a refurbished TV replacement with no warranty, I would expect the terms to explicitly state that, otherwise I would expect a new replacement either like for like or similar make or model and spec which is the normal language typically used.

I refer back to my earlier post about the applicability of the CRA as the OP may have better standing claiming a repair or replacement of the TV under the CRA rather than the warranty itself. I say this because I don't believe the CRA excludes insurance contracts and I suspect it will fall under a contract for the transfer of goods. Given the wide scope of the CRA in that it applies to almost any case where a trader supplies goods to a consumer, it's a plausible argument albeit one I have never had to make before.

DullGreyGuy

PHK said:

A_Geordie said:

I don't think I have seen warranty terms require the production of a VAT receipt before so that's unusual. 

The starting point is that the contract of sale would be between Sony and D&G, so you would not be privy to the contract or have any rights unless the contract terms allowed for third party rights.

Second, not all warranties are transferable so do you need to check the warranty terms. If the warranty is transferable then the warranty terms will usually stipulate how it is to be transferred. This can be automatically as soon as you come into possession of the goods, but sometimes you might have to notify the manufacturer the goods have changed hands and update any personal details. 

The Sony website has extended warranty terms for TVs (Repair Protection Plan Terms). Some notable clauses are:

Clause 1.6 says that you will be provided with a document detailing the warranty and this is needed as proof for making any claim. It also says you may be asked for proof of purchase of the product. 

Clause 7 explains that Sony will accept the benefit of the warranty applies to third parties if they have consented.

Clause 10 confirms the warranty is transferable if you comply with clause 11.

Clause 11 explains how you contact Sony for a claim or to update details. 

Assuming these are the correct warranty terms, it would seem you would need the warranty confirmation as well as D&G's proof of purchase from Sony (not that a confirmation letter that the product was given to you for £0). The requirement specifically a VAT receipt does not appear to align with the warranty terms as it says only proof of purchase is required. 

Absent any of the above, you would have to find out if D&G agreed with Sony that you would benefit from the extended warranty to rely on clause 1.7. Sounds unlikely but I'm not sure the standard customer service advisor would have that sort of information, possibly the person who handled the claim.

Finally, warranties are typically in addition to your statutory rights so they are not an automatic right. That said sometimes companies will include terms of the contract that they will pass along any warranties they obtained from the manufacturer. Check the D&G terms, if this is the case then they could be in breach of contract and you could potentially sue them for repair or replacement of the TV.

If there is nothing to suggest warranties are passed along, I guess it would be up to D&G to initiate the warranty claim but again, only if they are obliged under the terms of the contract between you and D&G.

After that, I think you are buggered*

* Not really thought about it, but there may be the potentially that the supply of a new TV (or even refurbished) would bring the replacement TV within the scope of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as to satisfactory quality, fit for purposes etc. D&G would be responsible for any issues relating to that TV.

It may be helpful for you to know that when an insurer replaces an item, they don't go out and buy an item. 

Not sure what you mean by "they dont go out and buy"? 

Sure a call centre agent doesn't log off the phone, take their corporate card and go down to the local Curry's to buy a TV but depending on the companies involved etc its not that far off. They log onto one of a potential number of suppliers sites (directly or via software) to agree with the customer the appropriate replacement, checking which offers the best price (after corporate discount) and either ordering the item for the customer or generating a gift card to the retail price of the item with the supplier (which inevitably the corporate discount is also applied to). 

My last claim (made not managed) was for a snatched phone, the phone itself was a simple cash settlement as it was out of stock everywhere but for the case/accessories it was literally talking to the claims handler both looking at Amazon them saying the case was £39 me saying thats only for the clear case whereas the stolen case was black which was £49 which they agreed and 15 minutes later an amazon voucher appears. 

When its the insurer buying it then as they purchased it there are no consumer rights as its a B2B purchase. Warranties are more variable because often insurers are buying from resellers not the manufacturer so it typically comes down to if warranties are transferable or not and what evidences they require. I've never worked on the other side of the fence for a retailer supplying an insurer but doubt they get a discount from their supplier because x% of their goods are sold in a way that the warranty will never be valid. 

Obv if it goes the gift card route then it is the insured buying the item and so consumer rights and warranties do normally apply as its irrelevant that the funds came from an insurer. 

born_again

From their T/C on appliance cover. This is not insurance, as they make no mention to FOS or being even being FCA regulated on their main page.

https://www.domesticapplianceguard.com/cover/appliance-cover

Replacements If a repair is approved, we may (at our discretion), deem your appliance beyond economical repair without an engineer visit following assessment of the claim and decide to replace your product with a new product of the same or similar technical specification or offer you a settlement in line with the current replacement value of your appliance. This will be at our discretion in the form of vouchers or discount from a retailer of our choosing. If products are deemed to be beyond economical repair, depending on the age there may be a deduction of your settlement. Appliance age Under 3 Years - 100% replacement contribution
Under 6 Years - 80% replacement contribution
Under 9 Years - 60% replacement contribution
Over 9 Years - 20% Replacement contribution

DullGreyGuy

born_again said:

From their T/C on appliance cover. This is not insurance, as they make no mention to FOS or being even being FCA regulated on their main page.

https://www.domesticapplianceguard.com/cover/appliance-cover

Replacements If a repair is approved, we may (at our discretion), deem your appliance beyond economical repair without an engineer visit following assessment of the claim and decide to replace your product with a new product of the same or similar technical specification or offer you a settlement in line with the current replacement value of your appliance. This will be at our discretion in the form of vouchers or discount from a retailer of our choosing. If products are deemed to be beyond economical repair, depending on the age there may be a deduction of your settlement. Appliance age Under 3 Years - 100% replacement contribution
Under 6 Years - 80% replacement contribution
Under 9 Years - 60% replacement contribution
Over 9 Years - 20% Replacement contribution

Thats a different company to Domestic & General

D&G sell both service plans and insurances, their insurances are underwritten by Domestic & General Insurance (https://register.fca.org.uk/s/firm?id=001b000000MfJLxAAN) - clearly took a lot of effort to come up with the name.