Very returns.

Rev

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

EU guidance says:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52021XC1229(04)&qid=1640961745514

Whether the consumer’s testing of the goods went beyond what was necessary to establish their nature, characteristics and functioning will have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis in the event of a dispute. The comparison with what the consumer can normally do in a brick- and-mortar shop serves as a good point of reference, for example:

—	Before purchasing audio/video and recording equipment, the consumer would normally be able to test the image or sound quality;

—	Trying on a garment in a shop would not involve the removal of the manufacturer’s tags;

—	The consumer would not normally be able to practically test household appliances, such as kitchen appliances, the actual use of which unavoidably leaves traces;

—	The consumer would not be able configure software on a computer; hence reasonable costs for any resetting of such equipment would also constitute diminished value.

—

The consumer could test perfumes and similar cosmetic products, which can be normally tested in shops, by means of a free tester that the trader could include with the product. That way, the consumers would not need to open the packaging of the product in order to exercise their right to establish their nature and characteristics (certain cosmetic products may be sealed for health protection or hygiene reasons – see section 5.11.4).

It should be kept in mind that ‘establishing the functioning’ of the goods in this context is different from checking that they are fault-free in every respect. If the goods turn out to be faulty in later use, the consumer is protected by the Sale of Goods Directive (EU) 2019/771.

In principle, the consumer should be able to open the packaging to access the content(s) inside if similar goods are normally displayed in shops in unpacked condition. Hence, damage caused to the packaging by merely opening it is not a cause for compensation. However, any protective films applied to the item should only be removed where strictly necessary to test it.

Given Apple stores are common and such items are on display I'd say you are entitled to open and look. 

OP Did you pay on credit (either with Very or a credit card)?

Thanks. Would this still apply as we’re no longer members of the EU?

I put it on my very account yes, with the intention of paying in full once they’d applied the 10% cashback. 

Okell

Rev said:

eskbanker said:

As you've already returned it, all you can really do at this stage is to wait and see what Very's response is and take it from there - the wording on their returns page linked from page 1 seems to be a reasonable reflection of the regulations and doesn't seek to exclude returns of such products, despite what was said by the person you dealt with:

Your Right to Cancel under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

You also have the legal right to cancel your order under these regulations. However, this cancellation right does not apply to personalised products, perishable goods, audio & video recordings and computer software which have been opened and goods that are unsuitable for return for health or hygiene reasons if they are unsealed after delivery.

The cancellation period will expire 14 days after the goods are received by you or by a third party nominated by you to receive the goods. If your order is for multiple products for separate delivery, the cancellation period will end 14 days after receipt of the last item. You must clearly communicate to us your decision to cancel before the end of the cancellation period. You can do this, for example, by completing and sending us the Model Cancellation Form found in the Returns section of our website Help pages.

If you do cancel, we will reimburse you the cost of the cancelled goods and the standard delivery charge by the original means of payment. Where the goods have not been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of the cancellation. Where the goods have been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of us receiving the goods back or us receiving evidence that you have returned the goods, whichever is earlier.

You are responsible for returning the goods to us if you cancel under these Regulations. So, if you use our courier service to return the goods you will be responsible for the cost of the return. In such cases, we will deduct the standard delivery charge from your refund so that you do not have to make a further payment for the return.

You’re right. Nothing I can do at this point but see what they say when it gets back to them. 

If they refuse it I will probably just accept it back and try and recoup as much as possible selling privately. 

I'm not sure I'd accept it.

You can't lose your right to cancel a "distance contract" within 14 days - the trader has to accept your cancellation.

What the trader can do, however, is to deduct an amount from your refund to reflect any loss in value of the item arising from your "... handling of the goods... beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods..."

I'm not convinced that simply opening it and turning it on would entitle Very to deduct anything from a full refund - but I'm no IT geek or computer expert and really have no idea what "handling" would devalue your piece of kit

If Very persist in telling you that you aren't entitled to any refund at all, refer them to paras 29, 33 and 34 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and point out to them that the law says something very different.

Then the issues become whether you are entitled to full refund, or whether they are entitled to deduct an amount, and what that amount might be.

One stumbling block for you might be that in order to exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract within 14 days, the regulations say that you must clearly inform the trader that you are cancelling the contract - see para 32(2) and (3).

Very might be able to argue that by telling them only that you were "returning using the 14 day cooling off period", that you hadn't told them you were cancelling the contract, as required by the regulations.  If you are still within the 14 days it might be worth your confirming to them ASAP that by returning the item you were exercising your statutory right to cancel the contract under para 29 of the regulations.

The frontline Very consumer services staff probably don't know the relevant law so you may need to push it with them.

Or just sell it privately to avoid the extra hassle...


NB - for future reference, when returning goods under a distance sale make sure you understand the differences between your statutory rights under the cancellation regulations and your rights under the trader's own returns policy.  If you decide to cancel the contract under the regulations, make sure you tell the trader that that is what you are doing

Okell

Mark_d said:

You have no right to a refund under the Consumer Contract Regulations.  There are a number of exclusions allowed by the Consumer Contracts Regulations.

If you were buying the iPad in store, eg. at Currys,  you would only be to get your hands on the sealed box before you make the purchase.  Opening the box takes value away from the product so it is unreasonable for you to expect a refund.

I don't think that's right.

The fact the OP broke the seal and turned it on doesn't extinguish his right to cancel the contract within 14 days

And in order not to be entitled to any refund at all, the OP's handling of the iPad would have had to reduce its value by 100%.

I find it hard to believe that simply opening the box and turning it on once - if that is all the OP did - would automatically reduce its value to zero

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Rev said:

Thanks. Would this still apply as we’re no longer members of the EU?

I put it on my very account yes, with the intention of paying in full once they’d applied the 10% cashback. 

The answer is somewhat complicated, I believe prior to 2024 lower courts were still bound by EU rulings and so you'd expect their guidance would have held good credibility, I'm not sure if that has now changed but given the EU wrote the law to begin with their guidance should still hold credibility. 

Our regs do state 

(12) For the purposes of paragraph (9) handling is beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop.

and as said, you can fondle an iPad in store so I'm not sure what defence Very could have to say what you did was what is necessary to establish the nature, etc but ultimately I don't think anyone here can say exactly what a small claims court will decide. 

However the good news is that credit with Very is regulated and as such they have an official complaints process with the option to go to the Financial Ombudsman Service if they don't resolve any complaint to your satisfaction which if you raise a complaint about being refused a refund/given a part refund, they are more inclined to resolve than you'd normally have with "customer service".

Details of that are below:

https://www.very.co.uk/assets/static/very-help-pages/FS2135-SDFC-Complaints-Leaflet-v1.pdf

If they give a full refund happy days and pop back to let us know.

If they refuse a refund/give a part refund I'd use the complaints process and, if you wish, happy to draft an opening correspondence outlining the best position for you to stand upon to complain. 

Hopefully won't come to that, I guess time will tell  

Okell

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

EU guidance says:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52021XC1229(04)&qid=1640961745514

Whether the consumer’s testing of the goods went beyond what was necessary to establish their nature, characteristics and functioning will have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis in the event of a dispute. The comparison with what the consumer can normally do in a brick- and-mortar shop serves as a good point of reference, for example:

—	Before purchasing audio/video and recording equipment, the consumer would normally be able to test the image or sound quality;

—	The consumer would not normally be able to practically test household appliances, such as kitchen appliances, the actual use of which unavoidably leaves traces;

—	The consumer would not be able configure software on a computer; hence reasonable costs for any resetting of such equipment would also constitute diminished value..

I think those three examples are quite interesting.

 -  I see no difference between testing the image and sound quality of audio/video and recording equipment and turning an iPad on to see how the display looks etc

 -  Would simply turning an iPad on unavoidably leave irremovable traces that can't be reset?

 -  Saying that you can't configure software on a computer (or rather, if you do then the trader can reduce your refund to reflect resetting costs) strongly implies to me that simply turning the computer on is no grounds to reduce a refund.  Otherwise the guidance would simply say "turning on a computer is not allowed" and any mention of configuring software would be redundant

Rev

Okell said:

Rev said:

eskbanker said:

As you've already returned it, all you can really do at this stage is to wait and see what Very's response is and take it from there - the wording on their returns page linked from page 1 seems to be a reasonable reflection of the regulations and doesn't seek to exclude returns of such products, despite what was said by the person you dealt with:

Your Right to Cancel under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

You also have the legal right to cancel your order under these regulations. However, this cancellation right does not apply to personalised products, perishable goods, audio & video recordings and computer software which have been opened and goods that are unsuitable for return for health or hygiene reasons if they are unsealed after delivery.

The cancellation period will expire 14 days after the goods are received by you or by a third party nominated by you to receive the goods. If your order is for multiple products for separate delivery, the cancellation period will end 14 days after receipt of the last item. You must clearly communicate to us your decision to cancel before the end of the cancellation period. You can do this, for example, by completing and sending us the Model Cancellation Form found in the Returns section of our website Help pages.

If you do cancel, we will reimburse you the cost of the cancelled goods and the standard delivery charge by the original means of payment. Where the goods have not been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of the cancellation. Where the goods have been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of us receiving the goods back or us receiving evidence that you have returned the goods, whichever is earlier.

You are responsible for returning the goods to us if you cancel under these Regulations. So, if you use our courier service to return the goods you will be responsible for the cost of the return. In such cases, we will deduct the standard delivery charge from your refund so that you do not have to make a further payment for the return.

You’re right. Nothing I can do at this point but see what they say when it gets back to them. 

If they refuse it I will probably just accept it back and try and recoup as much as possible selling privately. 

I'm not sure I'd accept it.

You can't lose your right to cancel a "distance contract" within 14 days - the trader has to accept your cancellation.

What the trader can do, however, is to deduct an amount from your refund to reflect any loss in value of the item arising from your "... handling of the goods... beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods..."

I'm not convinced that simply opening it and turning it on would entitle Very to deduct anything from a full refund - but I'm no IT geek or computer expert and really have no idea what "handling" would devalue your piece of kit

If Very persist in telling you that you aren't entitled to any refund at all, refer them to paras 29, 33 and 34 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and point out to them that the law says something very different.

Then the issues become whether you are entitled to full refund, or whether they are entitled to deduct an amount, and what that amount might be.

One stumbling block for you might be that in order to exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract within 14 days, the regulations say that you must clearly inform the trader that you are cancelling the contract - see para 32(2) and (3).

Very might be able to argue that by telling them only that you were "returning using the 14 day cooling off period", that you hadn't told them you were cancelling the contract, as required by the regulations.  If you are still within the 14 days it might be worth your confirming to them ASAP that by returning the item you were exercising your statutory right to cancel the contract under para 29 of the regulations.

The frontline Very consumer services staff probably don't know the relevant law so you may need to push it with them.

Or just sell it privately to avoid the extra hassle...


NB - for future reference, when returning goods under a distance sale make sure you understand the differences between your statutory rights under the cancellation regulations and your rights under the trader's own returns policy.  If you decide to cancel the contract under the regulations, make sure you tell the trader that that is what you are doing

Thank you. Yeah when I called very the woman I spoke to didn’t have a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned the 14 day cooling off and basically just kept saying it’s opened so we won’t accept it. She put me on hold for a second then came back and told me to return it but that it may not be accepted. 

I’m definitely within the 14 days as I only took delivery Monday. 

On the return form there was no option to tick ‘returning under cooling off period’ So I did write on the form that I was cancelling the contract under the 14 day cooling off. 

Okell

Rev said:

Okell said:

Rev said:

eskbanker said:

As you've already returned it, all you can really do at this stage is to wait and see what Very's response is and take it from there - the wording on their returns page linked from page 1 seems to be a reasonable reflection of the regulations and doesn't seek to exclude returns of such products, despite what was said by the person you dealt with:

Your Right to Cancel under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

You also have the legal right to cancel your order under these regulations. However, this cancellation right does not apply to personalised products, perishable goods, audio & video recordings and computer software which have been opened and goods that are unsuitable for return for health or hygiene reasons if they are unsealed after delivery.

The cancellation period will expire 14 days after the goods are received by you or by a third party nominated by you to receive the goods. If your order is for multiple products for separate delivery, the cancellation period will end 14 days after receipt of the last item. You must clearly communicate to us your decision to cancel before the end of the cancellation period. You can do this, for example, by completing and sending us the Model Cancellation Form found in the Returns section of our website Help pages.

If you do cancel, we will reimburse you the cost of the cancelled goods and the standard delivery charge by the original means of payment. Where the goods have not been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of the cancellation. Where the goods have been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of us receiving the goods back or us receiving evidence that you have returned the goods, whichever is earlier.

You are responsible for returning the goods to us if you cancel under these Regulations. So, if you use our courier service to return the goods you will be responsible for the cost of the return. In such cases, we will deduct the standard delivery charge from your refund so that you do not have to make a further payment for the return.

You’re right. Nothing I can do at this point but see what they say when it gets back to them. 

If they refuse it I will probably just accept it back and try and recoup as much as possible selling privately. 

I'm not sure I'd accept it.

You can't lose your right to cancel a "distance contract" within 14 days - the trader has to accept your cancellation.

What the trader can do, however, is to deduct an amount from your refund to reflect any loss in value of the item arising from your "... handling of the goods... beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods..."

I'm not convinced that simply opening it and turning it on would entitle Very to deduct anything from a full refund - but I'm no IT geek or computer expert and really have no idea what "handling" would devalue your piece of kit

If Very persist in telling you that you aren't entitled to any refund at all, refer them to paras 29, 33 and 34 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and point out to them that the law says something very different.

Then the issues become whether you are entitled to full refund, or whether they are entitled to deduct an amount, and what that amount might be.

One stumbling block for you might be that in order to exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract within 14 days, the regulations say that you must clearly inform the trader that you are cancelling the contract - see para 32(2) and (3).

Very might be able to argue that by telling them only that you were "returning using the 14 day cooling off period", that you hadn't told them you were cancelling the contract, as required by the regulations.  If you are still within the 14 days it might be worth your confirming to them ASAP that by returning the item you were exercising your statutory right to cancel the contract under para 29 of the regulations.

The frontline Very consumer services staff probably don't know the relevant law so you may need to push it with them.

Or just sell it privately to avoid the extra hassle...


NB - for future reference, when returning goods under a distance sale make sure you understand the differences between your statutory rights under the cancellation regulations and your rights under the trader's own returns policy.  If you decide to cancel the contract under the regulations, make sure you tell the trader that that is what you are doing

Thank you. Yeah when I called very the woman I spoke to didn’t have a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned the 14 day cooling off and basically just kept saying it’s opened so we won’t accept it. She put me on hold for a second then came back and told me to return it but that it may not be accepted. 

I’m definitely within the 14 days as I only took delivery Monday. 

On the return form there was no option to tick ‘returning under cooling off period’ So I did write on the form that I was cancelling the contract under the 14 day cooling off. 

If I were you I think I'd contact them again and clarify to them that when you returned the item "under the 14 day cooling off period" that what you were doing was exercising your statutory right to cancel a distance contract within 14 days of delivery under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

How to exercise your right to cancel is covered under para 32 of the above regulations.

Basically it says that you need to inform the trader by making a clear statement that you are cancelling the contract.

I doesn't say you have to do it in writing, but that is probably preferable.  If you do it by email or letter you need to make sure you send it off before the expiry of the 14 day cancellation window.

Rev

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Rev said:

Thanks. Would this still apply as we’re no longer members of the EU?

I put it on my very account yes, with the intention of paying in full once they’d applied the 10% cashback. 

The answer is somewhat complicated, I believe prior to 2024 lower courts were still bound by EU rulings and so you'd expect their guidance would have held good credibility, I'm not sure if that has now changed but given the EU wrote the law to begin with their guidance should still hold credibility. 

Our regs do state 

(12) For the purposes of paragraph (9) handling is beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop.

and as said, you can fondle an iPad in store so I'm not sure what defence Very could have to say what you did was what is necessary to establish the nature, etc but ultimately I don't think anyone here can say exactly what a small claims court will decide. 

However the good news is that credit with Very is regulated and as such they have an official complaints process with the option to go to the Financial Ombudsman Service if they don't resolve any complaint to your satisfaction which if you raise a complaint about being refused a refund/given a part refund, they are more inclined to resolve than you'd normally have with "customer service".

Details of that are below:

https://www.very.co.uk/assets/static/very-help-pages/FS2135-SDFC-Complaints-Leaflet-v1.pdf

If they give a full refund happy days and pop back to let us know.

If they refuse a refund/give a part refund I'd use the complaints process and, if you wish, happy to draft an opening correspondence outlining the best position for you to stand upon to complain. 

Hopefully won't come to that, I guess time will tell  

Thank you. I really appreciate that. 

I’ll report back when the iPad arrives back with very and they make their decision. 

screech_78

There might be an issue depending on how OP has returned the iPad. 

If they’ve returned it under Very’s own returns policy (pre-printed returns label, free return etc) then the iPad should meet all other terms of that policy such as being unused and can be rejected on that basis. 

I haven’t read Very’s terms but usually if cancelling the contract under CCR’s, it’s the customers responsibility to arrange the return and pay for this. 

We successfully defended a small claims court case a few months ago where a customer returned a vacuum cleaner (although they didn’t contact us at all). They simply returned it using our own returns and it was rejected as it had clearly been well used. Judge advised even if customer had followed correct process to cancel, they wouldn’t have expected the customer to get much back going by the photos we had taken when we received it as it had been well used. I know it’s not the same with the iPad but you might face some issues if you’ve turned under their own policy (which is separate to your statutory rights). 

Rev

Okell said:

Rev said:

Okell said:

Rev said:

eskbanker said:

As you've already returned it, all you can really do at this stage is to wait and see what Very's response is and take it from there - the wording on their returns page linked from page 1 seems to be a reasonable reflection of the regulations and doesn't seek to exclude returns of such products, despite what was said by the person you dealt with:

Your Right to Cancel under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

You also have the legal right to cancel your order under these regulations. However, this cancellation right does not apply to personalised products, perishable goods, audio & video recordings and computer software which have been opened and goods that are unsuitable for return for health or hygiene reasons if they are unsealed after delivery.

The cancellation period will expire 14 days after the goods are received by you or by a third party nominated by you to receive the goods. If your order is for multiple products for separate delivery, the cancellation period will end 14 days after receipt of the last item. You must clearly communicate to us your decision to cancel before the end of the cancellation period. You can do this, for example, by completing and sending us the Model Cancellation Form found in the Returns section of our website Help pages.

If you do cancel, we will reimburse you the cost of the cancelled goods and the standard delivery charge by the original means of payment. Where the goods have not been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of the cancellation. Where the goods have been delivered, the reimbursement will be made within 14 days of us receiving the goods back or us receiving evidence that you have returned the goods, whichever is earlier.

You are responsible for returning the goods to us if you cancel under these Regulations. So, if you use our courier service to return the goods you will be responsible for the cost of the return. In such cases, we will deduct the standard delivery charge from your refund so that you do not have to make a further payment for the return.

You’re right. Nothing I can do at this point but see what they say when it gets back to them. 

If they refuse it I will probably just accept it back and try and recoup as much as possible selling privately. 

I'm not sure I'd accept it.

You can't lose your right to cancel a "distance contract" within 14 days - the trader has to accept your cancellation.

What the trader can do, however, is to deduct an amount from your refund to reflect any loss in value of the item arising from your "... handling of the goods... beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods..."

I'm not convinced that simply opening it and turning it on would entitle Very to deduct anything from a full refund - but I'm no IT geek or computer expert and really have no idea what "handling" would devalue your piece of kit

If Very persist in telling you that you aren't entitled to any refund at all, refer them to paras 29, 33 and 34 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and point out to them that the law says something very different.

Then the issues become whether you are entitled to full refund, or whether they are entitled to deduct an amount, and what that amount might be.

One stumbling block for you might be that in order to exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract within 14 days, the regulations say that you must clearly inform the trader that you are cancelling the contract - see para 32(2) and (3).

Very might be able to argue that by telling them only that you were "returning using the 14 day cooling off period", that you hadn't told them you were cancelling the contract, as required by the regulations.  If you are still within the 14 days it might be worth your confirming to them ASAP that by returning the item you were exercising your statutory right to cancel the contract under para 29 of the regulations.

The frontline Very consumer services staff probably don't know the relevant law so you may need to push it with them.

Or just sell it privately to avoid the extra hassle...


NB - for future reference, when returning goods under a distance sale make sure you understand the differences between your statutory rights under the cancellation regulations and your rights under the trader's own returns policy.  If you decide to cancel the contract under the regulations, make sure you tell the trader that that is what you are doing

Thank you. Yeah when I called very the woman I spoke to didn’t have a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned the 14 day cooling off and basically just kept saying it’s opened so we won’t accept it. She put me on hold for a second then came back and told me to return it but that it may not be accepted. 

I’m definitely within the 14 days as I only took delivery Monday. 

On the return form there was no option to tick ‘returning under cooling off period’ So I did write on the form that I was cancelling the contract under the 14 day cooling off. 

If I were you I think I'd contact them again and clarify to them that when you returned the item "under the 14 day cooling off period" that what you were doing was exercising your statutory right to cancel a distance contract within 14 days of delivery under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

How to exercise your right to cancel is covered under para 32 of the above regulations.

Basically it says that you need to inform the trader by making a clear statement that you are cancelling the contract.

I doesn't say you have to do it in writing, but that is probably preferable.  If you do it by email or letter you need to make sure you send it off before the expiry of the 14 day cancellation window.

Thank you. I’ll send them an email to that effect tonight.