American Express credit card chargeback rebilled after 7 months

easysteve589

Gandalf644 said:

easysteve589 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Gandalf has covered the specifics of them being in Spain, which I have no knowledge of so that is very helpful.

easysteve589 said:

What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Chargeback makes the original merchant liable for the cost, Section 75 makes the card provider liable, if they are not happy to give away someone else's money they are going to be even less likely to give away their own money. Especially as now from Gandalf we know that this was effectively forced on them by a pseudo-legal process. They will almost certainly fall back against that process and issue a blanket no. 

easysteve589 said:

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

No.

easysteve589 said:

In terms of background, I purchased a number of hospitality tickets to a football match which we were told would be located within a hospitality lounge and include food, wine, beer, spirits and cocktails. Our seats were also located on the halfway line and in a great position to view the match.

About two weeks before the event, we were contacted to advise that due to policing and security advice our seats within the stadium were being moved to another location and our hospitality would be within a different lounge. We were told these seats would be in the corner of the stadium, but we accepted the change in viewing experience provided everything else remained the same. 

I confirmed at the time that the original package description would remain the same, and this was confirmed as yes by the company.

When we arrived at the stadium, we were surprised to find that there was no lounge, but instead food and drink was being served in an outdoor area of the stadium, while the weather was about 8° in November. We were not prepared for this.

Only beer and wine was made available (no spirits or cocktails), which several of our party do not consume.

The whole experience was absolutely substandard and had we known this would be the experience we would have booked non-hospitality seats or asked for a refund when the seats were located. Upon contacting the company after the event to state our dissatisfaction, we were most likely looking for an outcome where they gave us a partial refund for the experience. I only went down the chargeback route given the complete absence of response from them.

It does not sound like it was what you expected or paid for, but on balance trying a full chargeback was also the wrong way to go, you still got limited hospitality and match tickets. You might have got away with a partial but the difficulty would have been deciding how much. I do not know the Spanish system anywhere near as well as Gandalf, but I do know that dealing with Spanish companies in general is an absolute pain in the %$&* even if they are parts of multinationals, let alone purely native. 

I am not really sure where to go from here though. 

Yes, it doesn’t sound like I have much chance of succeeding here. While I accept it may well be outside Amex’s control, I’m still pretty peeved off that for all intents and purposes this was closed at the end of March and it would’ve been reasonable to assume my liability was no more at that point.

It will be difficult to overturn a Spanish Arbitration ruling. 

From what I remember about the arbitration re the hire car (I had no knowledge it had been taken to Arbitration until my credit card was billed about 6 months later), the appeal process involved visitng Spain again to personally sign a statement in the office of a 'civil annunciary' (or something like that) within a certain amount of days (which had already passed) and lodging a fee of thousands of Pesetas (which was around £700 in those days). 

For those reasons, I think it is why Spanish firms go down the Arbitration route in civil disputes, particularly in cases where the defendant is foreign - they are more or less backing a winner!

In your case, it is highly probable that Amex wouldn't have known about the process until the judgement landed on a desk months later - as happened in my case (I had paid for the hire car with the card that was billed 6 months later).

In the end I just had to suck it up as it would have cost me more to fight the case than the cost of the alleged damage.

I’m in the same position it seems. The costs of fighting it and losing would be greater than the costs I’d have to suck up. I’m not saying it’s a racket, but they certainly look to have a home run scenario if in dispute with a foreigner. 

Out of interest, I was considering closing down my American Express a few months ago given the change to British Airways spend requirements for companion voucher. If I had closed my account and this arbitration ruling  had came in, what would have happened if there was no credit card to charge?

I also find it quite unusual that a court of any kind in Spain can make a judgement with evidence from only one of the involved parties. I can provide plenty which would show that both the services were not provided as described and that the company point-blank refused to engage in any communication to resolve the dispute before I went through chargeback means.

SacredStephan

I'd suggest that you contact Dean Dunham.
https://www.debellolaw.com/about/#dean
https://www.debellolaw.com/contact

born_again

easysteve589 said:

Thanks @MattMattMattUK for your reply.

While you’ve said it’s rare, is it normal that an arbitration process would take place behind closed doors with no opportunity for me to contribute additional evidence?

It’s immensely frustrating that I’ve been led to believe the issue was closed as of March only to now be re issued the charge and also find out this process has been taking place over many months.

Is it likely that American Express have taken this long to reach a decision and do you know if there was a time limit for the merchant to raise arbitration?

In terms of background, I purchased a number of hospitality tickets to a football match which we were told would be located within a hospitality lounge and include food, wine, beer, spirits and cocktails. Our seats were also located on the halfway line and in a great position to view the match.

About two weeks before the event, we were contacted to advise that due to policing and security advice our seats within the stadium were being moved to another location and our hospitality would be within a different lounge. We were told these seats would be in the corner of the stadium, but we accepted the change in viewing experience provided everything else remained the same. 

I confirmed at the time that the original package description would remain the same, and this was confirmed as yes by the company.

When we arrived at the stadium, we were surprised to find that there was no lounge, but instead food and drink was being served in an outdoor area of the stadium, while the weather was about 8° in November. We were not prepared for this.

Only beer and wine was made available (no spirits or cocktails), which several of our party do not consume.

The whole experience was absolutely substandard and had we known this would be the experience we would have booked non-hospitality seats or asked for a refund when the seats were located. Upon contacting the company after the event to state our dissatisfaction, we were most likely looking for an outcome where they gave us a partial refund for the experience. I only went down the chargeback route given the complete absence of response from them.

What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

Can't comment on Amex process. Or what or where this arbitration process is or who by.

But had this have been Visa/Mastercard.

When it gets to arbitration stage. It is Visa/Mastercard that sit in judgement & with all the evidence has been previously submitted by both parties.
If all evidence has not been submitted then it is hard luck. 

The issues with cases like yours, is things like "substandard" are very subjective. So in cases like this it is often the case they get overturned. As card providers look at the hard evidence.