American Express credit card chargeback rebilled after 7 months

easysteve589

Sorry to reignite an old debate. I used an American Express card to pay for a number of hospitality tickets for a football event in Spain in November 2023. The service was not as described and I contacted the merchant to resolve. 

They flat out ignored my requests after 2 months of trying politely. I had a couple of replies from the original salesperson saying they’d passed my details to their complaints team. I never heard back. I emailed them directly from their website and still nothing. I even found contact details for more senior employees on LinkedIn and attempted to contact them with no success. The original salesperson also blanked my emails.

I was left with no option other than to raise a chargeback request via Amex in January 2024. The process took a number of weeks. Initially, Amex refunded the money while they investigated. After a few weeks they advised the merchant had provided evidence and they recharged my account. I then appealed the decision and submitted additional evidence and they once again credited the charge back to my account. 

I heard nothing from them but continued to monitor my Amex disputes account. The dispute moved to closed status and marked with a resolution date of 27th March 2024. I checked my account again on 30th May 2024 and I was showing as having no active disputes.

As of today, 11th October, I noticed a change in my available balance and after speaking with live chat was told the disputed charge had been reapplied. The advisor shared with me the notes that had been added to the account. They are as follows. 

Notes: ISO 4553: Cardmember rebilled as arbitration ruling in acq favor and SE t&c were accepted by CM and services were used as is.

After reviewing the information, you provided and the circumstances of the transaction, we believe the charge to be reasonable. The merchant support confirms that the terms and conditions were agreed for this purchase and the services are used as is.

As a result, the transaction will remain on your account and the amount previously credited has been reapplied to your account balance. You will see this reflected on an upcoming billing statement.

We suggest you work directly with the merchant to resolve this matter.

I was unaware any arbitration process was underway and I was granted no opportunity to provide any case or supporting evidence. I have not seen any of the evidence providing by the merchant. As above, I was also led to believe the case was closed on my favour, after Amex having initially sided with the merchant. 

I was also unaware it was at all possible for a chargeback to be reapplied after almost 9 months from the date of the resolution, and 11 months since the date of the event.

For now, I have opened a complaint with Amex and they will contact me within 3 days.

My question: is this normal and what options do I have from here?

MattMattMattUK

easysteve589 said:

Sorry to reignite an old debate. I used an American Express card to pay for a number of hospitality tickets for a football event in Spain in November 2023. The service was not as described and I contacted the merchant to resolve. 

They flat out ignored my requests after 2 months of trying politely. I had a couple of replies from the original salesperson saying they’d passed my details to their complaints team. I never heard back. I emailed them directly from their website and still nothing. I even found contact details for more senior employees on LinkedIn and attempted to contact them with no success. The original salesperson also blanked my emails.

I was left with no option other than to raise a chargeback request via Amex in January 2024. The process took a number of weeks. Initially, Amex refunded the money while they investigated. After a few weeks they advised the merchant had provided evidence and they recharged my account. I then appealed the decision and submitted additional evidence and they once again credited the charge back to my account. 

I heard nothing from them but continued to monitor my Amex disputes account. The dispute moved to closed status and marked with a resolution date of 27th March 2024. I checked my account again on 30th May 2024 and I was showing as having no active disputes.

As of today, 11th October, I noticed a change in my available balance and after speaking with live chat was told the disputed charge had been reapplied. The advisor shared with me the notes that had been added to the account. They are as follows. 

Notes: ISO 4553: Cardmember rebilled as arbitration ruling in acq favor and SE t&c were accepted by CM and services were used as is.

After reviewing the information, you provided and the circumstances of the transaction, we believe the charge to be reasonable. The merchant support confirms that the terms and conditions were agreed for this purchase and the services are used as is.

As a result, the transaction will remain on your account and the amount previously credited has been reapplied to your account balance. You will see this reflected on an upcoming billing statement.

We suggest you work directly with the merchant to resolve this matter.

I was unaware any arbitration process was underway and I was granted no opportunity to provide any case or supporting evidence. I have not seen any of the evidence providing by the merchant. As above, I was also led to believe the case was closed on my favour, after Amex having initially sided with the merchant. 

I was also unaware it was at all possible for a chargeback to be reapplied after almost 9 months from the date of the resolution, and 11 months since the date of the event.

For now, I have opened a complaint with Amex and they will contact me within 3 days.

My question: is this normal and what options do I have from here?

It is rare but it can and does happen as you have found out.

If this was chargeback you now in theory have the option of starting a Section 75 claim, although Amex would almost certainly find against you, which means you have the option of taking the event provider and/or Amex to court and proving in a court of law that you are entitled to a refund. 

You might have to give us a bit more info as to why you feel it was not as described if you want any indication of what chance of success you might have. 

easysteve589

Thanks @MattMattMattUK for your reply.

While you’ve said it’s rare, is it normal that an arbitration process would take place behind closed doors with no opportunity for me to contribute additional evidence?

It’s immensely frustrating that I’ve been led to believe the issue was closed as of March only to now be re issued the charge and also find out this process has been taking place over many months.

Is it likely that American Express have taken this long to reach a decision and do you know if there was a time limit for the merchant to raise arbitration?

In terms of background, I purchased a number of hospitality tickets to a football match which we were told would be located within a hospitality lounge and include food, wine, beer, spirits and cocktails. Our seats were also located on the halfway line and in a great position to view the match.

About two weeks before the event, we were contacted to advise that due to policing and security advice our seats within the stadium were being moved to another location and our hospitality would be within a different lounge. We were told these seats would be in the corner of the stadium, but we accepted the change in viewing experience provided everything else remained the same. 

I confirmed at the time that the original package description would remain the same, and this was confirmed as yes by the company.

When we arrived at the stadium, we were surprised to find that there was no lounge, but instead food and drink was being served in an outdoor area of the stadium, while the weather was about 8° in November. We were not prepared for this.

Only beer and wine was made available (no spirits or cocktails), which several of our party do not consume.

The whole experience was absolutely substandard and had we known this would be the experience we would have booked non-hospitality seats or asked for a refund when the seats were located. Upon contacting the company after the event to state our dissatisfaction, we were most likely looking for an outcome where they gave us a partial refund for the experience. I only went down the chargeback route given the complete absence of response from them.

What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

Gandalf644

OP,

Is the 'Arbitration ruling' referred to by Amex an external arbitration case held under the civil Spanish Arbitration Act 2003 by any chance?  

The act allows for 'civil arbitration' in cases involving civil disputes which occur in Spain (and even certain international cases). The other party would have had one year to bring about the case to the Arbitrator.

If so, it would appear the other party may have taken the case to a Spanish Arbitrator (with similar powers to the County Court in UK) externally to any banking process and the Arbitrator has ruled in favour of the other party.

Hence, the Arbitrator will have ordered Amex to pay the other party and in turn Amex has re-billed you, as you effectively lost the Arbitration case.

In effect it is not Amex at fault here, they are 'piggy in the middle' and followed the arbitrator's ruling (which 'out-trumps' banking processes such as Chargebacks) and complied with Spanish law (as the dispute took place in Spain). Amex should be able to give you at least basic details of the case from the judgement requring payment. They may have to 'dig it out' though as probably not on their screens in UK. I also doubt the agents on the phone would have any knowledge of the process either.

Spanish businesses often take disputes to their Arbitrators, rather than going down processes used in the UK (for example chargeback) and they can be a pain to unwind after a judgement has been made. I was stung by this about 20 years ago re some alleged minor damage to a hire car in Spain (even though the damage was there and photographed by myself immediately before I signed for the car and I noted it on the hire agreement). I only found out about the claim circa 6 months later, by which time I had binned my copy of the hire agreement listing the damage.I did have the photos though.

You may wish to either read up on the Spanish Arbitration Act or get a solicitor with good knowledge of the Spanish Arbitration process to advise you on any possible way forward.

DullGreyGuy

easysteve589 said:

While you’ve said it’s rare, is it normal that an arbitration process would take place behind closed doors with no opportunity for me to contribute additional evidence?

If we park the fact you have an AmEx card and it was in Spain...

Chargeback is a very basic process with strict rules of how it should be applied managed by the card network (eg Visa, Mastercard). For example for a "not delivered" chargeback if the merchant can show the courier confirmed delivery the case will be dismissed, even if the cardholder can show the courier delivery photo/GPS location etc isn't the delivery address. 

With the other networks your card issuer raises the matter with the merchant services bank of the store who ask their customer for details within X days. This then gets passed back to your card issuer who reviews the evidence of both parties against the scheme rules and informs you and the merchant services of their decision. If a party doesn't agree then both have a second opportunity to provide evidence and this then goes to Visa/Mastercard for arbitration. The network makes their decision and the card issuer and merchant services apply it. 

AmEx is a little different because in many cases they are both the card issuer and the network; dont know if they have a second tier or a different group that review disputed outcomes. 

So there was opportunity for you to provide additional evidence and you did provide it when you disagreed with their initial decision. 

easysteve589 said:
What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

There is no direct time limit for S75 however S75 just mirrors liability from the merchant to the creditor and so if you had gone beyond the time limit for a legal claim against the merchant then you'd also be statute barred for S75... so in England most S75 will fall under simple contracts which has a 6 years time limit from the breach of contract. 

What happened with the chargeback is broadly irrelevant to a S75 claim, it may have relevance to a complaint though. Because of the simplification of chargebacks it is possible to lose a chargeback but win a S75

How did you buy the tickets though? Directly with the stadium or via a middleman? S75 requires a direct relationship between you and the supplier and so fails if you buy it from a ticketing agent etc.


I cannot comment on the Spanish arbitration system outside of chargebacks 

MattMattMattUK

Gandalf has covered the specifics of them being in Spain, which I have no knowledge of so that is very helpful.

easysteve589 said:

What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Chargeback makes the original merchant liable for the cost, Section 75 makes the card provider liable, if they are not happy to give away someone else's money they are going to be even less likely to give away their own money. Especially as now from Gandalf we know that this was effectively forced on them by a pseudo-legal process. They will almost certainly fall back against that process and issue a blanket no. 

easysteve589 said:

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

No.

easysteve589 said:

In terms of background, I purchased a number of hospitality tickets to a football match which we were told would be located within a hospitality lounge and include food, wine, beer, spirits and cocktails. Our seats were also located on the halfway line and in a great position to view the match.

About two weeks before the event, we were contacted to advise that due to policing and security advice our seats within the stadium were being moved to another location and our hospitality would be within a different lounge. We were told these seats would be in the corner of the stadium, but we accepted the change in viewing experience provided everything else remained the same. 

I confirmed at the time that the original package description would remain the same, and this was confirmed as yes by the company.

When we arrived at the stadium, we were surprised to find that there was no lounge, but instead food and drink was being served in an outdoor area of the stadium, while the weather was about 8° in November. We were not prepared for this.

Only beer and wine was made available (no spirits or cocktails), which several of our party do not consume.

The whole experience was absolutely substandard and had we known this would be the experience we would have booked non-hospitality seats or asked for a refund when the seats were located. Upon contacting the company after the event to state our dissatisfaction, we were most likely looking for an outcome where they gave us a partial refund for the experience. I only went down the chargeback route given the complete absence of response from them.

It does not sound like it was what you expected or paid for, but on balance trying a full chargeback was also the wrong way to go, you still got limited hospitality and match tickets. You might have got away with a partial but the difficulty would have been deciding how much. I do not know the Spanish system anywhere near as well as Gandalf, but I do know that dealing with Spanish companies in general is an absolute pain in the %$&* even if they are parts of multinationals, let alone purely native. 

I am not really sure where to go from here though. 

easysteve589

Gandalf644 said:

OP,

Is the 'Arbitration ruling' referred to by Amex an external arbitration case held under the civil Spanish Arbitration Act 2003 by any chance?  

The act allows for 'civil arbitration' in cases involving civil disputes which occur in Spain (and even certain international cases). The other party would have had one year to bring about the case to the Arbitrator.

If so, it would appear the other party may have taken the case to a Spanish Arbitrator (with similar powers to the County Court in UK) externally to any banking process and the Arbitrator has ruled in favour of the other party.

Hence, the Arbitrator will have ordered Amex to pay the other party and in turn Amex has re-billed you, as you effectively lost the Arbitration case.

In effect it is not Amex at fault here, they are 'piggy in the middle' and followed the arbitrator's ruling (which 'out-trumps' banking processes such as Chargebacks) and complied with Spanish law (as the dispute took place in Spain). Amex should be able to give you at least basic details of the case from the judgement requring payment. They may have to 'dig it out' though as probably not on their screens in UK. I also doubt the agents on the phone would have any knowledge of the process either.

Spanish businesses often take disputes to their Arbitrators, rather than going down processes used in the UK (for example chargeback) and they can be a pain to unwind after a judgement has been made. I was stung by this about 20 years ago re some alleged minor damage to a hire car in Spain (even though the damage was there and photographed by myself immediately before I signed for the car and I noted it on the hire agreement). I only found out about the claim circa 6 months later, by which time I had binned my copy of the hire agreement listing the damage.I did have the photos though.

You may wish to either read up on the Spanish Arbitration Act or get a solicitor with good knowledge of the Spanish Arbitration process to advise you on any possible way forward.

Great insight here. While I know nothing of it, it does sound like it could be relevant here. In which case, I’m holding little hope of success.

Although the chargeback amount is considerable, as would be the cost of a solicitor and I’m not sure it’s a worthwhile endeavour.

easysteve589

DullGreyGuy said:

How did you buy the tickets though? Directly with the stadium or via a middleman? S75 requires a direct relationship between you and the supplier and so fails if you buy it from a ticketing agent etc.

Thankfully, I purchased the tickets directly from the stadium and no middleman was involved. I’m a little confused between chargebacks and section 75. I have gone through the American Express dispute process. Therefore, is this classed as a chargeback process or section 75?  

easysteve589

MattMattMattUK said:

Gandalf has covered the specifics of them being in Spain, which I have no knowledge of so that is very helpful.

easysteve589 said:

What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Chargeback makes the original merchant liable for the cost, Section 75 makes the card provider liable, if they are not happy to give away someone else's money they are going to be even less likely to give away their own money. Especially as now from Gandalf we know that this was effectively forced on them by a pseudo-legal process. They will almost certainly fall back against that process and issue a blanket no. 

easysteve589 said:

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

No.

easysteve589 said:

In terms of background, I purchased a number of hospitality tickets to a football match which we were told would be located within a hospitality lounge and include food, wine, beer, spirits and cocktails. Our seats were also located on the halfway line and in a great position to view the match.

About two weeks before the event, we were contacted to advise that due to policing and security advice our seats within the stadium were being moved to another location and our hospitality would be within a different lounge. We were told these seats would be in the corner of the stadium, but we accepted the change in viewing experience provided everything else remained the same. 

I confirmed at the time that the original package description would remain the same, and this was confirmed as yes by the company.

When we arrived at the stadium, we were surprised to find that there was no lounge, but instead food and drink was being served in an outdoor area of the stadium, while the weather was about 8° in November. We were not prepared for this.

Only beer and wine was made available (no spirits or cocktails), which several of our party do not consume.

The whole experience was absolutely substandard and had we known this would be the experience we would have booked non-hospitality seats or asked for a refund when the seats were located. Upon contacting the company after the event to state our dissatisfaction, we were most likely looking for an outcome where they gave us a partial refund for the experience. I only went down the chargeback route given the complete absence of response from them.

It does not sound like it was what you expected or paid for, but on balance trying a full chargeback was also the wrong way to go, you still got limited hospitality and match tickets. You might have got away with a partial but the difficulty would have been deciding how much. I do not know the Spanish system anywhere near as well as Gandalf, but I do know that dealing with Spanish companies in general is an absolute pain in the %$&* even if they are parts of multinationals, let alone purely native. 

I am not really sure where to go from here though. 

Yes, it doesn’t sound like I have much chance of succeeding here. While I accept it may well be outside Amex’s control, I’m still pretty peeved off that for all intents and purposes this was closed at the end of March and it would’ve been reasonable to assume my liability was no more at that point.

Gandalf644

easysteve589 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Gandalf has covered the specifics of them being in Spain, which I have no knowledge of so that is very helpful.

easysteve589 said:

What makes you say that section 75 would not work in my favour? Is there a time limit on when that can be raised to American Express?

Chargeback makes the original merchant liable for the cost, Section 75 makes the card provider liable, if they are not happy to give away someone else's money they are going to be even less likely to give away their own money. Especially as now from Gandalf we know that this was effectively forced on them by a pseudo-legal process. They will almost certainly fall back against that process and issue a blanket no. 

easysteve589 said:

Do I have any increased chance of being successful with section 75 given that I have taken screenshots from my American Express “Manage My Disputes” account which shows the issue closed as of March? 

No.

easysteve589 said:

In terms of background, I purchased a number of hospitality tickets to a football match which we were told would be located within a hospitality lounge and include food, wine, beer, spirits and cocktails. Our seats were also located on the halfway line and in a great position to view the match.

About two weeks before the event, we were contacted to advise that due to policing and security advice our seats within the stadium were being moved to another location and our hospitality would be within a different lounge. We were told these seats would be in the corner of the stadium, but we accepted the change in viewing experience provided everything else remained the same. 

I confirmed at the time that the original package description would remain the same, and this was confirmed as yes by the company.

When we arrived at the stadium, we were surprised to find that there was no lounge, but instead food and drink was being served in an outdoor area of the stadium, while the weather was about 8° in November. We were not prepared for this.

Only beer and wine was made available (no spirits or cocktails), which several of our party do not consume.

The whole experience was absolutely substandard and had we known this would be the experience we would have booked non-hospitality seats or asked for a refund when the seats were located. Upon contacting the company after the event to state our dissatisfaction, we were most likely looking for an outcome where they gave us a partial refund for the experience. I only went down the chargeback route given the complete absence of response from them.

It does not sound like it was what you expected or paid for, but on balance trying a full chargeback was also the wrong way to go, you still got limited hospitality and match tickets. You might have got away with a partial but the difficulty would have been deciding how much. I do not know the Spanish system anywhere near as well as Gandalf, but I do know that dealing with Spanish companies in general is an absolute pain in the %$&* even if they are parts of multinationals, let alone purely native. 

I am not really sure where to go from here though. 

Yes, it doesn’t sound like I have much chance of succeeding here. While I accept it may well be outside Amex’s control, I’m still pretty peeved off that for all intents and purposes this was closed at the end of March and it would’ve been reasonable to assume my liability was no more at that point.

It will be difficult to overturn a Spanish Arbitration ruling. 

From what I remember about the arbitration re the hire car (I had no knowledge it had been taken to Arbitration until my credit card was billed about 6 months later), the appeal process involved visitng Spain again to personally sign a statement in the office of a 'civil annunciary' (or something like that) within a certain amount of days (which had already passed) and lodging a fee of thousands of Pesetas (which was around £700 in those days). 

For those reasons, I think it is why Spanish firms go down the Arbitration route in civil disputes, particularly in cases where the defendant is foreign - they are more or less backing a winner!

In your case, it is highly probable that Amex wouldn't have known about the process until the judgement landed on a desk months later - as happened in my case (I had paid for the hire car with the card that was billed 6 months later).

In the end I just had to suck it up as it would have cost me more to fight the case than the cost of the alleged damage.

DullGreyGuy

easysteve589 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

How did you buy the tickets though? Directly with the stadium or via a middleman? S75 requires a direct relationship between you and the supplier and so fails if you buy it from a ticketing agent etc.

Thankfully, I purchased the tickets directly from the stadium and no middleman was involved. I’m a little confused between chargebacks and section 75. I have gone through the American Express dispute process. Therefore, is this classed as a chargeback process or section 75?  

Disputes are initially treated as Chargebacks for a number of reasons. During a S75 the merchant isn't typically involved at all as the card issuer/creditor pays for the claim out of their own pocket and normally will have no relationship with the merchant.