Awkward Gas Situation - Advice please!

WobagUK

Brief as possible!

Last year we had a new gas fire fitted.  This year we had a different gas engineer come in to fix a small control fault and then service it.  (Both engineers are qualified and came from checkatrade/trustatrader highly reviewed)

However he stated that it had not been installed in accordance with regulations, using solder joint rather than compression joints.

He said he 'didnt want to mess with another man's work, and to get him back to correct it, but not to say that someone else had been in and told us to do that'.

We both feel weird about trying to navigate that conversation, and dont really want the first guy back at all as he must have thought it was safe to do at the time, and certify.

My gut feeling is find a third engineer to do the work, but I now have no confidence that he will be any better than the first guy or that they would want to undertake the work like the second guy.

Mark_d

You gas fire was fitted with a solder joint.  Is this against any regulation or is it just against best practice/guidance?

Is the solder joint unsafe in any way, or is it preventing you from doing anything?  What exactly is the problem here?

ThisIsWeird

Hi Wobag.

This is a recent installation, so you'll know the make and model of the fire? And you know which joint the second fellow is referring to? (I'm guessing it must be the actual final connection to the fire, as this is the only one that can get hot?! And soldered joints for the rest of the supply pipe would be the norm.)

Can you see that joint? If so, please take a photo, and email the gas fire manufacturer - ask for their opinion.

And/or, if you provide the Make and Model, we can possibly find the instal instructions and look it up too.

I certainly wouldn't go 'accusing' the first guy unless you have independent evidence it's the case.

Was this faulty part replaced under warranty?

Badboi

Might not be the preferred option, but you ca. have soldered gas joints, even to the fire, at least you didn’t have water isolation valves fitted when they should have been gas like in our house 🙈.

if it was such an issue the 2nd guy would have dealt with it..

FreeBear

From https://registeredgasengineer.co.uk/technical/technical-bulletin-111/

Currently, BS 6891(1) allows copper pipework to be joined only by either a capillary soldered joint (this may be either a soft solder or brazed joint), or, alternatively, using a compression fitting – but only in readily accessible areas.

And from https://registeredgasengineer.co.uk/technical/can-we-help-you/

What are the requirements for soldering gas installation pipework in a caravan? Can I use any solder?

When installing pipework in a caravan, static mobile home or motor home, it is not permitted to use soft soldered fittings. Only mechanical fittings or hard soldered (brazed) fittings should be used.

So, from the above, soldered joints are perfectly acceptable, and compression fittings should only be used in exposed areas. Crimp and push-fit fittings are not acceptable in any location.

Caravans & camper vans are the exception for soldered joints, but these types of installations tend to have fully accessible pipe runs anyway.

Unless your second GS engineer can produce a technical bulletin, I would suggest he is poorly informed. Unfortunately, these people have the power to condemn an installation on the most spurious of reasons. Had one slap an "at risk" notice on a Baxi back boiler because it didn't have a grommet around a thermocouple going in to the combustion chamber. Claimed there was a risk of CO leaking out. There has never been a grommet, and Baxi do not even list one in the spares diagram. And as the appliance is not room sealed, CO leakage from that spot makes no difference... He just wanted the job of a boiler upgrade at a hugely inflated price.

WobagUK

Mark_d said:

You gas fire was fitted with a solder joint.  Is this against any regulation or is it just against best practice/guidance?

Is the solder joint unsafe in any way, or is it preventing you from doing anything?  What exactly is the problem here?

Second guy showed something on his phone that stated solder joints should not be used, I dont have the link now, and clearly he wasnt angling for more work because hes declined to do it.He went as far as saying that the first guy should be reported but didnt want to 'get into that'.

He stated it would be a longterm problem due to heat acting on the joints. I say joints because I gather the last bit of pipe from the wall had to be quite 'twisty' to fit.

Next stop is looking for the fire manual which I put 'somewhere safe and obvious', to see if it has any specific references.  The second guy seemed to think it would as he suggested using that as a reason to get the first guy back (as if I would just casually notice that installation under the fire in daily use!)

ThisIsWeird

WobagUK said:

Mark_d said:

You gas fire was fitted with a solder joint.  Is this against any regulation or is it just against best practice/guidance?

Is the solder joint unsafe in any way, or is it preventing you from doing anything?  What exactly is the problem here?

Second guy showed something on his phone that stated solder joints should not be used, I dont have the link now, and clearly he wasnt angling for more work because hes declined to do it.He went as far as saying that the first guy should be reported but didnt want to 'get into that'.
He stated it would be a longterm problem due to heat acting on the joints. I say joints because I gather the last bit of pipe from the wall had to be quite 'twisty' to fit.
Next stop is looking for the fire manual which I put 'somewhere safe and obvious', to see if it has any specific references.  The second guy seemed to think it would as he suggested using that as a reason to get the first guy back (as if I would just casually notice that installation under the fire in daily use!)

That clarifies things a bit, but a photo would still help.
To be clear, conventional soldered fittings - such as pre-soldered 'Yorkies', or the neater -end-feeds' - are the standard for domestic gas pipe runs, so I'm still wondering if the issue this guy has was with the final connection to the fire, of which the only type I've ever seen is compression?
If the installer, for some strange reason, soldered the pipe where it connected to the fire's existing compression fitting, that would be of concern, but no other soldered fittings should be.
Have a look at any gas pipe going to a fire or boiler in a domestic setting - it will have standard soldered fittings, as is the norm.
Photo, please?
Another possibility is that regs have changed, and all you should have in a domestic gas fire installation is continuous malleable copper pipe for the runs - no joints at all? Could anyone confirm?

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said: Another possibility is that regs have changed, and all you should have in a domestic gas fire installation is continuous malleable copper pipe for the runs - no joints at all? Could anyone confirm?

Searched high & low on the Gas Safe web site, Can't find any technical bulletins saying soldered joints are no longer acceptable. You can't use compression joints under floorboards or other inaccessible spaces, and you are limited to 3m lengths of copper pipe (longer lengths may be available to special order, and would need specialist delivery to site). Few plumbers would be experienced in hard soldering or brazing, and I doubt any would be able to weld copper.

Even if soldered joints have been banned (which I doubt), it wouldn't retrospectively apply to existing installations.

rob7475

I've seen this a few times with gas engineers. They come in to do a job and pick faults at the original install saying it's not been done properly etc. 

I had it with a boiler service recently. I found a local Worcester accredited installer to come and service the boiler and he reeled off a long list of things wrong with the installation and technically he could condemn the boiler. I asked him to put it all in writing so I could go back to Worcester Bosch as the boiler install was arranged through them. He quickly backtracked and said the install was "probably ok" but not up to the standard he would have done it. Funnily enough, I had to call him back a couple of days later as the condensate trap was leaking after he'd emptied it.

jefaz07

I’m not aware of any regulations regarding soldered fittings. 

It would be wise to find the manufacturers instructions and see what they say, they supersede all. 

Grenage

I am also not aware of regs that say solder is not acceptable.  This is likely a misunderstanding by the second fellow.