Overpaid Armed Forces pension for 12 years, do I have to pay it all back?

molerat

I highly suspect this will be AFPS75 so there is no direct pay comparison as it is based on representative pay, nothing to do with actual pay and is not a linear progression, the accrual rate accelerates the longer you are a member.  You pretty much get told "this is your pension" with no explanation at all so very difficult, if not impossible, to tell if it is correct.

xylophone

You pretty much get told "this is your pension" with no explanation at all so very difficult, if not impossible, to tell if it is correct.

And if I were the OP I would be making this argument in the strongest possible terms.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80597839/#Comment_80597839

BikingBud

molerat said:

I highly suspect this will be AFPS75 so there is no direct pay comparison as it is based on representative pay, nothing to do with actual pay and is not a linear progression, the accrual rate accelerates the longer you are a member.  You pretty much get told "this is your pension" with no explanation at all so very difficult, if not impossible, to tell if it is correct.

What about use of indicative information such as annual statements, any data taken from the Forces Pension Calculator and supporting information for the AFPS75/05 election. Surely all of these would have provided a reasonable estimate. 

AFPS 75 accrual rates are faster up to the immediate pension point, so that after 16 years' reckonable service as an Officer you will have accrued 28.5% of representative pay and after 22 years' reckonable service as an Other Rank; you will have accrued 31.83% of representative pay.

What about the peer group and how much their mates were getting? Unlike civ pension AFPS will be almost the same for those that joined and progressed through the ranks together.

In the same way as people should understand their tax liability or their monthly pay from their rank and pay spine and then deduction of food/accommodation/CILOCT etc I would expect people to know exactly what pension they are getting.

I would also be interested to understand what has been observed that caused the overpayment, substitution pay, acting higher rank, "years for the Queen", commission from the ranks?

Anything commutated and not deducted?

Resettlement commutation applies to AFPS 75 only.  It provides the option to give up some of your ’75 scheme taxable pension income to create a tax-free lump sum (in addition to the AFPS 75 terminal grant).  There is a maximum amount of commutation allowed but you can choose to give up less if you wish, which would leave a higher pension income.  If you opt to take resettlement commutation, your ’75 scheme annual pension income would be reduced as a result until Age 55 (essentially to ‘repay’ the element you commuted).  At Age 55 the repayment is complete and your full pension is restored to its original value.

That said I do feel that there is a personal obligation here, how much is really a shock and how much was keeping quiet and hoping nothing would be spotted.

Marcon

BikingBud said:

In the same way as people should understand their tax liability or their monthly pay from their rank and pay spine and then deduction of food/accommodation/CILOCT etc I would expect people to know exactly what pension they are getting.

If the pension professionals charged with paying the correct pension can't get it right, why would you expect the recipients to believe they know better?

badmemory

Asking friends how much pension they are receiving is a good way to stop having any friends.  I am on the old state pension as are all my friends.  It would never occur to me to ask them how much they are getting, but the situation is the same as bikingbud is suggesting.

BikingBud

Marcon said:

BikingBud said:

In the same way as people should understand their tax liability or their monthly pay from their rank and pay spine and then deduction of food/accommodation/CILOCT etc I would expect people to know exactly what pension they are getting.

If the pension professionals charged with paying the correct pension can't get it right, why would you expect the recipients to believe they know better?

You could just disclaim knowledge about everything and say it always somebody else's fault. Or:

• Because the pension professionals are humans, they make errors in inputting data and follow the output of the computer.
• Whereas the recipient might invest in understanding the make up of the payment rather than just the answer.
• Because the pension tables are published
• If the individual went through the 75/05 election process, and if the pension has been in payment for 12 years it seems most likely, projections were made available for all service personnel.
• AFPS has had pension calculators with detailed breakdown since the 75/05 election process.
• As pay is not personally negotiated but paid from scales that cover ranks and steps with those ranks and their was fixed accrual rates for AFPS 75
• Contrary to the civil world people in the military often talk about wages and pensions and whether commutation might be worthwhile so you often know what your contemporaries are expecting and by comparison what you will get.
• Because it's the responsibility of all service personnel to ensure their pay and allowances are correct and by extension that approach should apply to pensions.

There may also be something we do not know such as a pension allotment following a divorce.

But we will only know if the OP comes back and adds more to further the discussion.

xylophone

You could just disclaim knowledge about everything and say it always somebody else's fault. 

But sometimes it certainly is "someone else's fault".

Is a misdiagnosis/medical error the patient's fault?

The calculation of a pension can be very complex, especially where a number of variables need to be taken into account.

It is absolutely the responsibility of the professional to get it right, or, if he gets it wrong, to have insurance to cover his liability.

BikingBud

See OP's other post:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6503632/backdated-pension-not-spread-over-tax-years-taxed-as-one-lump-sum-mcclod-remedy#latest

There is history here and it does not appear as a simple as overpaid for 12 years!

McCloud only affects those that were forced onto AFPS15, if the other thread is correct they cannot have had a pension in payment for 12 years!

Both this post and the other the OP fired and left, no further comment no thanks or feedback on how the problem was resolved.

We are only getting a small part of the story and from that I stick by my earlier comment, "it's all someone else's fault"

Grumpy_chap

@BikingBud - that seems very odd.
Taking the two threads together, it seems as though as recently as February this year, the OP was claiming for a long-standing underpayment to be made good.
Now there is a long-standing overpayment to be remedied.
I find it quite unbelievable that the two could happen in relation to the same individual and not be properly resolved in one measure.  Have I misunderstood what the combined message of the two threads is suggesting?

BikingBud

xylophone said:

You could just disclaim knowledge about everything and say it always somebody else's fault. 

But sometimes it certainly is "someone else's fault".

Is a misdiagnosis/medical error the patient's fault?

The calculation of a pension can be very complex, especially where a number of variables need to be taken into account.

It is absolutely the responsibility of the professional to get it right, or, if he gets it wrong, to have insurance to cover his liability.

Perhaps not.

If the patient doesn't accurately describe the symptoms or the circumstance how can the medical professional diagnose effectively. If you don't say your wrist hurts they are extremely unlikely to tell you that you've fractured you ulna. It's not Dr Spock from Star Trek with his whistling tool!

If the OP was divorced and it has only come to light that there was a pension allotment as part of the divorce settlement as the former spouse is now at the age to claim it then that will now need to be calculated.

But we are unlikely to know as the OP may not return to advise us.