Shared inherited property please help !!

ThisIsWeird

Grayandsullysnan said:

Hi my sister and I have inherited my late mother's house...we are both executors and equal beneficiaries..
I want to buy my sister out, at the valuation, which we've had two of, which were the same amount...she is refusing to allow me to do this just out of pure spite and control... she stated she has sought legal advice and was told as the will doesn't provide for a beneficiary to buy the house, it has to be put up for sale and I would have to match the highest bid....In this process, I cannot offer a bid nor buy it but have to match the highest bid...
Can anyone advise if this advise she has had is correct thank you

Her 'legal advice' sounds suspect at best.
If you and sis had PoA, and we're managing this sale for the benefit of your mum, or a larger range of benefactors - say, your mum required full time care - then, yes, the obligation on you two would be to obtain the max possible sum for the house.
But, I gather this is not the case? Your mum has sadly passed away, and you and sis are the sole beneficiaries? In which case, the two of you can do what you want - provided both agree.
For example, why don't you just give her your 'half' for a token £5 to make her happy?
Kidding! But just to demonstrate that you could
What to do? I think what others have suggested - play the longer game, and wait. First, remove from your mind - or at least from any outward indicator, including this forum - the 'emotive'. You can internally speculate what is driving her, but forget all that. I mean, somewhere deep inside, under the 'obvious' behaviour, could lurk a very vulnerable person, who has a deep emotional tie to the house. Ok, I doubt it, but hey! Simply look at, and treat, this as a practical issue. So no hint of frustration or suspicion or accusations of why she is being like this. 
Restate your offer in writing, as simply and clearly as possible - two columns, one outlining the 'normal open market sale via an EA' method, starting with the market valuation amount, and then indicating the cost of, say, a 6 month delay - typically how long a house will take to sell; maintenance, insurance, energy, CT, etc etc and ultimately the EA fees, and try and arrive at a figure which she'll likely end up with after this process. Add to that sum, the expected monthly ongoing costs should it not sell. So, a net sale 'sum' at the bottom, should it sell in 6 months, and the ongoing cost per month if it doesn't.
The other column has the net sum going with your offer, based on the same starting market value as before, the time it would take you to buy it - one month? - only one month's ongoing costs, and no EA's fees. End with that sum.
Add to 'your' sum a few £k if you wish, but make it clear it ain't a 'sweetener', but just in case the market valuation is slightly out; your extra is a 'best case valuation' scenario, even tho' you doubt it's really worth that, wot with the new boiler it needs, the redecorating, the.... And, as the house is left empty, that valuation is likely to fall, so you can remove that extra sum at any point, depending on circumstances, until she says 'Ok, yes'.

And then just explain, honestly and matter-of-factly, the reason you want the house; be as honest ask you can be about this - is it sentimental, or an investment, or a mix? And then respond to her inevitable refusal with sincere disappointment, but no acrimony. 

Be utterly calm and conciliatory, with no hint of accusation or recrimination. Put your hands up if she becomes agitated; "Ok...ok...that's fine...we'll talk later..." Do NOT suggest she's being 'unreasonable' or anything like! Always 'questions' instead; "Don't you think it would be better if we didn't fill an EA's pockets? Don't you think it would be nice to sort this to both our benefits?" That sort of stuff. A 'Q' puts unreasonable folk on the spot - they have to answer, or look evasive.

You be as honest and open as possible, but hide frustrations! When folk are being unreasonable, and even emotionally dishonest in their actions, the only way to disarm is by being the opposite, and non-judgemental, regardless of how you feel inside! Any challenge to unreasonable behaviour will almost always cause a doubling-down. And if you are clearly not being honest about things like why you want the house, for example, then the other side will feel vindicated in their own behaviour.

Ask her for her reasons, in a genuinely interested way. Do not 'accuse' her of anything, or act frustrated, or roll eyes! Just ask; "You clearly feel very strongly about this, but I'm not sure why. Could you explain it to me, please?" Prompt, if there is no genuine response; "Is it because it's our family home? Do you miss it? So many memories? Do you think it would be better for a stranger to live here rather than family? Why?..." Gentle, non-accusatory, and then leave it. Be ready to go, "I can see it's upsetting you...", at any point. And change the topic.

Anything you want to suggest or say to her, try and put it in the form of a question. "Do you think...?", "Could it be that...?" "What would you prefer, X or Y?"

Ultimately, you can seemingly play the waiting game for longer than her. As much as she can scupper the sale to you for as long as she wants, so can you ditto the sale via an EA. But you have the more valid reasons. So refer to these reasons (as on the comparison list you will hopefully make), and make it clear you aren't just being difficult. "It's clear we see it differently at the moment, so best if we don't do anything for the time being - let's give us both time to think, yes?" "It's all a bit raw at the moment - best we give it a few months, yes?" That way, it'll simply delay the whole process, and likely help you. (Note - end with a Q).
I suspect this could be a narcissistic control issue, in which case she'll continue to use it as long as she feels it gives her control and power over you. (Or, she could simply be jealous?) So, if you are cross or frustrated, then she's 'got' you. So you be as 'understanding' as possible, 'assuming' her actions are based on the 'only' reason she could 'possibly' have - an emotional attachment to the house - and that you 'understand' this, and are patient enough to give her the time to come to terms. I mean, what can she say to that?! "NO! It's cuz I don't want you to have it!!!". Nope.
As this goes on, you keep it calm and understanding, but can add elements of, 'I see a roof tile has slipped' (if true), or 'I notice it smells a bit musty', anything like that. Or, "Uncle Frank was asking me the other day why we aren't sorting it - I didn't know what to say to him...." Again obviously if true! (If you'll feel it's right, you could even prompt such conversations with useful relatives; "I don't know why she wants to sell via an EA instead of to me. But it's something she feels strongly about. I'll give her time...")

As far as you are concerned, your offer is clearly the sensible one - why should we both give £ks to an Estate Agent? - and it also keeps the house 'in the family'. That's why you are prepared to wait, instead of marketing it with an EA. What's her reasons?!

(If you have any concerns of folk seeing content in this thread that you wouldn't want, I'll certainly delete my post for example.)

FreeBear

Flugelhorn said:

"where there's a will, there are relatives"

there are lots of tales on here about siblings and other relatives can start behaving in an irrational, obstructive and selfish way - something gets into them, last chance to be a pain to sibs? who knows but  am sure that often  the parents would have been horrified but it happens.

I have one of those tales - Within a few weeks of mum being laid to rest, got a letter from a solicitor demanding a copy of the will (I was joint exec with Sis) wanting to know what the b*****d was due to get. Responded with "until such time as probate is granted, that information is not available. Here is the form to set up a standing search. However, I can confirm that b*****d is to get nothing". Eight months later, after exchanging several letters with this solicitor, we get a very abuse Christmas card - Guessing that the solicitor had wanting his bill settled But that was the last we heard.

A close friend lost both his parents around the same time, and his siblings argued over disposal of the estate (they were all joint executors). It ended up needing solicitors letters to get moving along with the threat of high court action. They finally agreed to instruct a solicitor to handle the probate & sale of a property - Might be an option for the OP.

Grayandsullysnan

ThisIsWeird said:

Grayandsullysnan said:

Hi my sister and I have inherited my late mother's house...we are both executors and equal beneficiaries..
I want to buy my sister out, at the valuation, which we've had two of, which were the same amount...she is refusing to allow me to do this just out of pure spite and control... she stated she has sought legal advice and was told as the will doesn't provide for a beneficiary to buy the house, it has to be put up for sale and I would have to match the highest bid....In this process, I cannot offer a bid nor buy it but have to match the highest bid...
Can anyone advise if this advise she has had is correct thank you

Her 'legal advice' sounds suspect at best.
If you and sis had PoA, and we're managing this sale for the benefit of your mum, or a larger range of benefactors - say, your mum required full time care - then, yes, the obligation on you two would be to obtain the max possible sum for the house.
But, I gather this is not the case? Your mum has sadly passed away, and you and sis are the sole beneficiaries? In which case, the two of you can do what you want - provided both agree.
For example, why don't you just give her your 'half' for a token £5 to make her happy?
Kidding! But just to demonstrate that you could
What to do? I think what others have suggested - play the longer game, and wait. First, remove from your mind - or at least from any outward indicator, including this forum - the 'emotive'. You can internally speculate what is driving her, but forget all that. I mean, somewhere deep inside, under the 'obvious' behaviour, could lurk a very vulnerable person, who has a deep emotional tie to the house. Ok, I doubt it, but hey! Simply look at, and treat, this as a practical issue. So no hint of frustration or suspicion or accusations of why she is being like this. 
Restate your offer in writing, as simply and clearly as possible - two columns, one outlining the 'normal open market sale via an EA' method, starting with the market valuation amount, and then indicating the cost of, say, a 6 month delay - typically how long a house will take to sell; maintenance, insurance, energy, CT, etc etc and ultimately the EA fees, and try and arrive at a figure which she'll likely end up with after this process. Add to that sum, the expected monthly ongoing costs should it not sell. So, a net sale 'sum' at the bottom, should it sell in 6 months, and the ongoing cost per month if it doesn't.
The other column has the net sum going with your offer, based on the same starting market value as before, the time it would take you to buy it - one month? - only one month's ongoing costs, and no EA's fees. End with that sum.
Add to 'your' sum a few £k if you wish, but make it clear it ain't a 'sweetener', but just in case the market valuation is slightly out; your extra is a 'best case valuation' scenario, even tho' you doubt it's really worth that, wot with the new boiler it needs, the redecorating, the.... And, as the house is left empty, that valuation is likely to fall, so you can remove that extra sum at any point, depending on circumstances, until she says 'Ok, yes'.

And then just explain, honestly and matter-of-factly, the reason you want the house; be as honest ask you can be about this - is it sentimental, or an investment, or a mix? And then respond to her inevitable refusal with sincere disappointment, but no acrimony. 

Be utterly calm and conciliatory, with no hint of accusation or recrimination. Put your hands up if she becomes agitated; "Ok...ok...that's fine...we'll talk later..." Do NOT suggest she's being 'unreasonable' or anything like! Always 'questions' instead; "Don't you think it would be better if we didn't fill an EA's pockets? Don't you think it would be nice to sort this to both our benefits?" That sort of stuff. A 'Q' puts unreasonable folk on the spot - they have to answer, or look evasive.

You be as honest and open as possible, but hide frustrations! When folk are being unreasonable, and even emotionally dishonest in their actions, the only way to disarm is by being the opposite, and non-judgemental, regardless of how you feel inside! Any challenge to unreasonable behaviour will almost always cause a doubling-down. And if you are clearly not being honest about things like why you want the house, for example, then the other side will feel vindicated in their own behaviour.

Ask her for her reasons, in a genuinely interested way. Do not 'accuse' her of anything, or act frustrated, or roll eyes! Just ask; "You clearly feel very strongly about this, but I'm not sure why. Could you explain it to me, please?" Prompt, if there is no genuine response; "Is it because it's our family home? Do you miss it? So many memories? Do you think it would be better for a stranger to live here rather than family? Why?..." Gentle, non-accusatory, and then leave it. Be ready to go, "I can see it's upsetting you...", at any point. And change the topic.

Anything you want to suggest or say to her, try and put it in the form of a question. "Do you think...?", "Could it be that...?" "What would you prefer, X or Y?"

Ultimately, you can seemingly play the waiting game for longer than her. As much as she can scupper the sale to you for as long as she wants, so can you ditto the sale via an EA. But you have the more valid reasons. So refer to these reasons (as on the comparison list you will hopefully make), and make it clear you aren't just being difficult. "It's clear we see it differently at the moment, so best if we don't do anything for the time being - let's give us both time to think, yes?" "It's all a bit raw at the moment - best we give it a few months, yes?" That way, it'll simply delay the whole process, and likely help you. (Note - end with a Q).
I suspect this could be a narcissistic control issue, in which case she'll continue to use it as long as she feels it gives her control and power over you. (Or, she could simply be jealous?) So, if you are cross or frustrated, then she's 'got' you. So you be as 'understanding' as possible, 'assuming' her actions are based on the 'only' reason she could 'possibly' have - an emotional attachment to the house - and that you 'understand' this, and are patient enough to give her the time to come to terms. I mean, what can she say to that?! "NO! It's cuz I don't want you to have it!!!". Nope.
As this goes on, you keep it calm and understanding, but can add elements of, 'I see a roof tile has slipped' (if true), or 'I notice it smells a bit musty', anything like that. Or, "Uncle Frank was asking me the other day why we aren't sorting it - I didn't know what to say to him...." Again obviously if true! (If you'll feel it's right, you could even prompt such conversations with useful relatives; "I don't know why she wants to sell via an EA instead of to me. But it's something she feels strongly about. I'll give her time...")

As far as you are concerned, your offer is clearly the sensible one - why should we both give £ks to an Estate Agent? - and it also keeps the house 'in the family'. That's why you are prepared to wait, instead of marketing it with an EA. What's her reasons?!

(If you have any concerns of folk seeing content in this thread that you wouldn't want, I'll certainly delete my post for example.)

Wow !!! Thank you, thank you for such an indepth response... you have clearly put a lot of thought and time into it and I do appreciate it... you have made some very interesting points re the letter and points and the psychology that I will definitely take up... thank you once again..ps, I'm not worried about anyone seeing this thread...

Grayandsullysnan

theartfullodger said:

As above: And note, this is an open-to-all forum with no restrictions on who can see what comments.....  (One of this & other forum's strengths...)

Someone might now be even more resolute after reading what's been said about them...

(Unconnected..) The place is fully insured and all bills being paid?? 

I doubt anyone involved will be on here... but if they are over only told the truth of the matter... yes the place is insured and all bills being paid... thank you for your reply 

Grayandsullysnan

Hoenir said:

If the property is to be marketed. Can you and your sister agree on a process that is acceptable to both of you. There's always the possibility that you could be the highest bidder and it's below the valuation that you've obtained for probate. . 

Selling property now is generally a bad time of year. Use it to your advantage. The longer your sister has to wait for her share of the money the more it's going to cost her. 

She just won't agree to me buying it, full stop...I replied to her and advised I have had advise and it would involve TOLATA..Trust of land and appointment of trustees act 1996.. she will have to have a valid and reasonable reason why I can't buy her out, and she doesn't have one

Grayandsullysnan

Flugelhorn said:

"where there's a will, there are relatives"

there are lots of tales on here about siblings and other relatives can start behaving in an irrational, obstructive and selfish way - something gets into them, last chance to be a pain to sibs? who knows but  am sure that often  the parents would have been horrified but it happens.

honestly for sanity sake just sell the house and move on, you have to take some control over the process - she will never stop otherwise

TBH though, I had no siblings so can't really comment much - it was often a pain being an only one it dealing with aging parents - could have done with some support but when it cam to sorting out the estate I as glad I didn't have to agree with anyone but myself 

Oh my mum would be spinning but I also know she knew what my sister was like

Grayandsullysnan

FreeBear said:

Flugelhorn said:

"where there's a will, there are relatives"

there are lots of tales on here about siblings and other relatives can start behaving in an irrational, obstructive and selfish way - something gets into them, last chance to be a pain to sibs? who knows but  am sure that often  the parents would have been horrified but it happens.

I have one of those tales - Within a few weeks of mum being laid to rest, got a letter from a solicitor demanding a copy of the will (I was joint exec with Sis) wanting to know what the b*****d was due to get. Responded with "until such time as probate is granted, that information is not available. Here is the form to set up a standing search. However, I can confirm that b*****d is to get nothing". Eight months later, after exchanging several letters with this solicitor, we get a very abuse Christmas card - Guessing that the solicitor had wanting his bill settled But that was the last we heard.

A close friend lost both his parents around the same time, and his siblings argued over disposal of the estate (they were all joint executors). It ended up needing solicitors letters to get moving along with the threat of high court action. They finally agreed to instruct a solicitor to handle the probate & sale of a property - Might be an option for the OP.

Unbelievable how some people can be...I will get a solicitors letter sent... but I'll wait for now thanks for responding 

YoungBlueEyes

As someone who's been through almost exactly the same situation I'd say agree to sell. No matter how much you want the house, sell.

My sis and I had the house when daddy died, I wanted to buy her out and she refused point blank. Her reason - "because then you'll have won" (?!) We got a RICS surveyor to come round and value it, I offered her over that and she still said no. I pointed out the saving on EA fees, we might end up in a huge chain etc, she truly didn't care. There is just no reasoning with some people if they don't respond to reason, it's a simple as that.

If you want to stick to your guns though, I'd agree with some of the previous posters. Get it on the market now (bad time of year) and use purplebricks (a lot of people avoid them like the plague), then make her another offer when she's seen that 'her way' isn't getting her any money. And is actually costing her money. 

Good luck.

RHemmings

The OP has moved away from the idea of matching the highest offer, and may go for half market value + £5000.

If the plan was for the house to be marketed, and the OP to pay half the highest bid, then if the sister is calculating as well as spiteful then she could get someone to put in a fake bid for a high amount. 

Not saying it would happen, but perhaps it's just one possibility among many to consider. 

I like the idea of selling through Purplebricks as it may reduce the probability of selling and the sister may decide she wants the money. Get the sister to do the viewings too. I have a vague feeling that may also put people off. 

ThisIsWeird

The OP could suggest PBricks, but sis could insist on a high street EA = stalemate?

I think it would be really interesting if Grayandsullysnan could, initially at least, play the medium-longer game first, present the two options in the unambiguous and unquestionably-favourable-towards-their-sibling way, and just let it play out for a while.
GaSN has rationale on their side, possibly along with a good emotional reason for wanting the house, and definitely coupled with a dash of £enerosity towards sis', whereas the other party has no valid excuse at all; let folk fill in the blanks.
Friends and family and work colleagues and whoever will surely become curious as to why nothing is happening with the house, asking what their plans are, and GaSN can answer honestly, but obviously with some 'reservation'; "I wish to buy it because blah blah blah, but sis isn't happy with that for some reason - perhaps it's all too emotional at the moment - so I'm giving her time to consider it...", with as much extra detail as feels fit; "Yes, my offer is at more than the market value, and of course there would be no delay or EA fees either - she'd be much better off...", and, "Here are the sums - see?" Absolutely no suggestion of why sis could be resistant - let folks fill that in themselves. Allow people to put 2&2 together.
Let that play out for a few months, meanwhile not allowing it to be marketed.
If sis is more than just envious or bitter, and if she has no justification for being so - if she has genuinely narcissistic traits, for example - then it would be useful if she actually exposed herself via this, as phoney folk like that are highly adept at presenting themselves in the manner they wish to, and being astonishingly devious. A situation such as this would risk them 'exposing' themselves, either by folk seeing they are being difficult for no obvious reason, or even - as narcs often do - by devising a story they may try and counter with, such as inventing ways to blame GaSN, which folk should soon realise are completely false.
No idea what the dynamics are in the OP's and sis's wider friends and family circle, but if the sis has a habit of playing devious games, then this could actually be a good exposé.
And, if sis is a genuine narcissist, she'll very likely capitulate on the house sale to maintain her self-made persona, and to 'prove' she ain't 'spiteful'. Narcs ultimately won't risk being exposed... Use that against her.