Group tour - refund if we have to cancel

Boleyn19

Hello, my husband and I are booked on a group tour. They usually want a minimum of 10 people of their tours however they have decoded to go ahead with only 5 of us. 

Unfortunately we may have to cancel due to a medical issue. We do have adequate insurance. However, what would happen if we cancel and the tour company then decides the tour is not viable with only 3 people and cancels the tour. They would refund the others but would they/should they also refund us?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, links etc

Mark_d

If you cancel and claim on your insurance, and then the tour company cancel...The tour company will give you a refund.  You then need to contact your insurance and they will ask you to repay the amount you claimed.   This is standard and is likely explained in your policy wording

Boleyn19

Mark_d said:

If you cancel and claim on your insurance, and then the tour company cancel...The tour company will give you a refund.  You then need to contact your insurance and they will ask you to repay the amount you claimed.   This is standard and is likely explained in your policy wording

My problem is that if we cancel. Then they cancel the tour. We would not be part of the group at that time and may never know they have cancelled anyway. This would all happen within the next four weeks.

Mark_d

If your medical advice is that you cancel, then you need to cancel and claim on your travel insurance.  If you get money from the tour operator then you need to pay this back to the travel insurance company.  If you hear nothing/don't get anything from the tour operator then there's nothing more you need to do

Boleyn19

Mark_d said:

If your medical advice is that you cancel, then you need to cancel and claim on your travel insurance.  If you get money from the tour operator then you need to pay this back to the travel insurance company.  If you hear nothing/don't get anything from the tour operator then there's nothing more you need to do

Yes, of course I understand what you are saying. I have already alerted the insurance company. 

The issue is whether legally the tour company should refund us if they cancel, or legally they don't have to.

DullGreyGuy

Boleyn19 said:

Mark_d said:

If your medical advice is that you cancel, then you need to cancel and claim on your travel insurance.  If you get money from the tour operator then you need to pay this back to the travel insurance company.  If you hear nothing/don't get anything from the tour operator then there's nothing more you need to do

Yes, of course I understand what you are saying. I have already alerted the insurance company. 

The issue is whether legally the tour company should refund us if they cancel, or legally they don't have to.

Is the Tour in the UK or overseas? Did you buy from a UK company or overseas one? What are the terms for cancellations made by you?

Legally you cannot claim on your insurance and also receive the money from the tour operator, that would be undue enrichment. So if your insurers payout and the tour doesn't you've got your money back, if the insurer pays out and the tour does too then you must refund the insurer and you'll have your money back, if the insurer declines for some reason and the tour operator refunds then you've got your money back. 

The only scenario it's relevant in is if the insurer declines the claim and the tour operator cancels but doesn't refund. If that happens then you can check what the relevant legislation is in the appropriate jurisdiction. Generally in English Law you would try to argue the terms were unfair under the relevant legislation and that the merchant could only get what your cancellation cost them not automatically the full amount you paid... you may be on a hiding to nowhere here though as if they did cancel the other 3 peoples holiday too as a consequence of your pulling out their losses may be larger than what you paid them

Boleyn19

Overseas. UK listed company but operating in country.

The tour goes in 5 weeks, we were going to go earlier. We would not make an insurance claim unless the tour operator refunds us in full. Or a partial claim if they refund some of it. And I won't start it until after the date of the tour. 

And yes, it would be a blow to the company and to there others on the tour. Just wanted to check the legal position rather than assume it.

Relevant sections

6. In the event of insufficient bookings being received to enable the Company to qualify for group travel concessions for escorted holidays, the Company reserves the right to cancel the tour. This will not normally be done less than eight weeks before departure. The liability of the Company is limited in such circumstances to a full refund of all monies paid. This condition does not apply to unescorted holidays.

21. Cancellation of a booking is effective only when received in writing by the Company. Cancellation fees are applicable as follows:
More than three months’ notice: £150.00 fee. Between three months and ten weeks: Loss of deposit
Less than ten weeks: 100% of the cost of the holiday Insurance premiums are non-refundable in the context of this clause. For individual arrangements made, where any costs are incurred directly related to these arrangements, the client will be responsible for the whole of that cost, except to the extent that the Company is able to obtain a refund regardless of when the cancellation is made (e.g. APEX type reduced fare tickets).

Grumpy_chap

Boleyn19 said:

Hello, my husband and I are booked on a group tour. They usually want a minimum of 10 people of their tours however they have decoded to go ahead with only 5 of us. 

Unfortunately we may have to cancel due to a medical issue. We do have adequate insurance. However, what would happen if we cancel and the tour company then decides the tour is not viable with only 3 people and cancels the tour. They would refund the others but would they/should they also refund us?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, links etc

Boleyn19 said:

Overseas. UK listed company but operating in country.

The tour goes in 5 weeks, we were going to go earlier. We would not make an insurance claim unless the tour operator refunds us in full. Or a partial claim if they refund some of it. And I won't start it until after the date of the tour. 

And yes, it would be a blow to the company and to there others on the tour. Just wanted to check the legal position rather than assume it.

Relevant sections

6. In the event of insufficient bookings being received to enable the Company to qualify for group travel concessions for escorted holidays, the Company reserves the right to cancel the tour. This will not normally be done less than eight weeks before departure. The liability of the Company is limited in such circumstances to a full refund of all monies paid. This condition does not apply to unescorted holidays.

21. Cancellation of a booking is effective only when received in writing by the Company. Cancellation fees are applicable as follows:
More than three months’ notice: £150.00 fee. Between three months and ten weeks: Loss of deposit
Less than ten weeks: 100% of the cost of the holiday Insurance premiums are non-refundable in the context of this clause. For individual arrangements made, where any costs are incurred directly related to these arrangements, the client will be responsible for the whole of that cost, except to the extent that the Company is able to obtain a refund regardless of when the cancellation is made (e.g. APEX type reduced fare tickets).

You might be overthinking this.
What happens to the tour and other tour guests after you have cancelled is irrelevant.

The tour is scheduled to depart in 5 weeks.
You need to cancel because of the medical issue.
As per the clause 21 you quoted, you are cancelling with less than 10 weeks' notice so suffer loss of 100% of the cost of the holiday.
You claim on your travel insurance for your loss and that claim is dealt with in line with the terms of cover you have.

That is the end for you.
Whether the tour proceeds or not is irrelevant.
FWIW, I assume the tour would now proceed.  The tour company already determined the tour as financially viable with 5 guests.  The tour company still has the income for five guests as you had no refund.  The financial balance for the tour company is unchanged.
The tour company might consider clause 6 reference "insufficient bookings" - but the number of bookings (paid guests) is actually unchanged.  PLUS, it is within the eight weeks, so not normal for the company to cancel - probably because they realise the inconvenience to the remaining passengers of such action.
For the tour company and the remainder of the guests on the tour, it is no different really to you simply not turning up on the day.

If the tour company does cancel the tour, based upon your action (your cancellation), then the tour company would have no need to inform you in any case since you have already exited yourself from the deal.

400ixl

From what I read

You cancel and they do not have to refund you anything due to notice being less than 10 weeks . End of responsibility on both parties.
If they have to then cancel the whole tour, they will refund the other people. You are still not entitled to anything and they would not have to inform you either as they no longer have any responsibility to you.

You claim off of your travel insurance if you are covered to get your money back.

This is assuming there are no other t&c's which could be relevant.

Boleyn19

Thank you for all your comments. It is as I thought but wanted to check because before putting in an insurance claim we are obliged to try and recover any money we can. And in this case we can ask and have it in writing that no refunds are possible. Then I'll start the claim.

Thanks again for your help. Great forum.