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Personal Fair Usage - EE 4G LTE Essentials Unlimited - Contract Issues

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  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 16,211 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM

    these posts are about the wording within an ISP's Terms of Service, a legal document and whether there there is a breach of consumer rights. 
    these posts are about consumer rights within an ISP's Terms of Service. The ISP sells both commercial and retail products. The commercial or business products are ethical in that their Terms of Service are honestly stated. The retail Terms of Service by comparison are unethical and may breach consumer rights.
    AIUI, your issue is that the product offers "never run out of data" or "unlimited data" but also has a clause restricting tethering to twelve devices.
    You want to tether more than twelve devices, so exceeding the terms of the contract.

    I fail to understand how that is unethical by the supplier or breaching consumer rights.
  • outtatune
    outtatune Posts: 599 Forumite
    500 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    EE are offering a service. Plenty of alternatives are available.
    If you don't like their terms, don't buy their service.
  • voluted
    voluted Posts: 64 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM
    voluted said:
    voluted said:
    voluted said:
    Ectophile said:
    voluted said:
    PHK said:
    voluted said:
    What they are saying is the service is unlimited but they then try to limit it! 

    I have "unlimited" with EE with the same clause about 600GB in the terms, they recently sent me a letter to say my contract was coming to an end but don't worry as everything carries on as normal, at the end of the letter it says "data: 9999 GB".

    Unlimited with restrictions shouldn't be sold as unlimited IMHO, switching you to a business tariff (if you aren't one) is possibly an unfair term, the reduction in speed could possibly be an unfair term as well as it's varying the service sold and forcing the consumer to accepted reduced benefits under the contract, either than or we are in CCRs territory.   
    Unfortunately anyone who realistically stood any chance of getting the use of the term "unlimited" stopped believed it was perfectly acceptable to use "Unlimited" as long as it was asterisked with *Fair Use Policy applies. That would be both the ASA and Ofcom.

    For what it's worth, I agree with you. "Unlimited" has a very clear definition that is "not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent." By introducing throttling when you get to a particular amount of data then it clearly IS restricted. The argument that technically they're not applying a strict limit on the data, but rather the speed, therefore there is no hard limit on the data allowance is ridiculous IMO. This has been going on for the best part of two decades though now, so I don't see it changing anytime soon.
    It’s slightly more nuanced than that. The argument given to ASA, Ofcom, Trading Standards etc is that the average user on the tariff uses much much less than the figure quoted and only 1% (or some such low value) of subscribers use the quoted figure or higher. Additionally (as you say) it isn’t a hard cut off at that figure. 

     
    I understand but that's not really the argument we are making here. The argument we are making is that "unlimited" has a very clear dictionary definition and I (and many others) do not agree that a service with a limit qualifies as unlimited.

    I have seen the argument made (and it's a real stretch) that since the connection speed could never be limited, no connection could be truly unlimited and, by extension, applying throttling is perfectly acceptable. I'd have to disagree with this, as there is a clear difference between a punitive limit applied over and above the connection speed and the fact that you don't have an infinite connection speed.

    It would be interesting to see how the courts would rule on this. As I said I think that if the ISP tinkers with anything which ultimately restricts how much a user can download, it is by extension placing a limit on their download capabilities. Sadly nobody seems to have had a desire to take this into a court that can set precedent.

    Whilst semantics would be fair game for court wordsmiths the question arises of whether EE is gaining something at the expense of its customers by using their established practices. If so, this could be considered a criminal offence under Fraud Act 2006.

    When punitive measures are applied on an unlimited plan, EE continues to collect revenue as though the 100Gbps speed limit was still in play and when knowingly they have reduced the speed to less than 10Gbps and without telling the subscriber this has happed. They gain on two counts: by freeing up bandwidth they encourage new business and by collecting revenue they are not entitled to, especially if the 10Gb product is sold at a cheaper rate. The court would need to establish whether this was intentional or a result of unintended consequences namely a failure of EE management and policy.

    I think tou're clutching at straws here.  They are applying the policy that was in the Terms and Conditions of the contract that you agreed to.


    On that subject I notice that some 5G plans from other providers are advertised as 500Gb rather Unlimited. Business Terms use a subscript on the word Unlimited pointing to a footnote to qualify what Unlimited means. This is not the case for Residential Terms which remains misleading.

    One thing I forgot to mention previously is that Business terms make no mention of the maximum number of connected devices or tethering however one must qualify as a trader to be a subscriber.


    Their residential T&Cs have an entire paragraph about Unlimited and what it means so I have no idea what you're referring to here.

    https://ee.co.uk/content/dam/help/terms-and-conditions/price-plans/mobile/sim-only-price-plans/ee-simo-plan-tncs-from290824.pdf

    In terms of the actual service comparison page, neither residential nor business qualifies what "Unlimited" means outside of the "Legal bit" at the bottom of the page, and there is no asterisk pointing people to this. As stated, the ASA and Ofcom both seem to be happy with the use of "Unlimited" to mean "With a limit but the vast majority will not hit it." You're going to be hard-pushed to get them to roll over by claiming this is misleading. You might be able to convince a judge but the chances of them turning up to a small claims hearing for this are slim to none, so you'd win by default rather than winning by proving them wrong.

    600GB is a lot, especially on a mobile service. You may think they're being unreasonable but it's fairly obvious pretty much nobody agrees with you here. If you can't convince anyone on here, I don't think you'll get anywhere with EE, an adjudication service or a judge.

    Thank you for replying. The ISP you refer to has a business side where the use of the word limited is qualified on Page 3 by a superscripted link, 7, whose detail appears in a footnote on Page 19 as part of their Terms of Service. The document can be found here.

    By comparison the use of the word unlimited in the residential side leaves a lot to be desired in terms of clarity and could be considered unethical. Their product page can be found here. Where is says “Are you an existing EE mobile customer?” move the switch to Yes to display this…



    Notice the wording on the banner “Never run out of data”. Below that, the word Unlimited is not superscripted to qualify what it means.






    Fundamentally the issue is that you are using a service designed for mobile phones in a router to supply a broadband connection to your home. At that point, your arguments pretty much go out of the window. So we need to look at whether these limitations are reasonable for a phone user. I'd say they are. 

    You'd need to go full whack for 5 1/2 days at 10Mbps to hit the 600GB cap. If we assume that half the day you're otherwise occupied (sleeping, eating etc) then that's 11 days, or a third of the entire month. If you also work and aren't glued to your phone whilst doing so, it's basically going to take every free second you have downloading at full pelt to hit that cap in a month.

    Trying to argue that the service isn't suitable for usage it isn't sold for isn't going to get you anywhere. My advice would be to approach EE, advise them that you have purchased an unsuitable service and see if they'd allow you out of the contract penalty-free if you agree to sign up to their mobile broadband service. I can't see them refusing, although you never know.

    Thank you for your opinion...these posts are not about user experience but about consumer rights within an ISP's Terms of Service. The ISP sells both commercial and retail products. The commercial or business products are ethical in that their Terms of Service are honestly stated. The retail Terms of Service by comparison are unethical and may breach consumer rights.
    And when you're using a service for a purpose it is not intended for, what rights do you have? You can't claim it's not fit for purpose, as its purpose is to supply phone calls/texts and data to a mobile phone, so what argument do you have then?

    Again, are these terms "unethical" when they're applied to mobile phone usage? As I've said (and you've seemingly ignored) you'd have to go out of your way if you were using this SIM in a mobile phone (which is where it is supposed to be used) to breach that 600GB threshold. There's no good reason I can see that you'd be tethering 12+ devices to your phone either. I think you really need to own your mistake or, if you thought you'd found a loophole, accept that you were caught out.
    Thank you for your reply...quite a few responders including yourself want to discuss user experience and technical issues so I will create a new post relating to this in the appropriate formum section. Perception is, that one can see that legal jargon and Ofcom transparency are not your forte so lets hope that you and other responders can indulge themselves on the new thread.

    I don't particularly appreciate the thinly-veiled insult.

    You are falling into the common trap of "people don't agree with me therefore they must be wrong."

    It boils down to this. You bought a service that is sold to be used for x, you want to use it for y. It has failed to fulfil your needs because it is not intended to be used for that purpose. If you were using it for its intended purpose, there might be an argument to be made but you are not so the point is moot.

    This is no different to buying sellotape and getting upset that it's not great at plugging leaks in pipes. It is sellotape, you use it to seal boxes, packaging etc, not stop leaking pipes. It is fit for the purpose it is sold for, sticking packaging together etc, so you have no comeback if it doesn't suit the purposes you bought it for, unless the seller told you it would be good for that purpose. As you would have mentioned it if they had, clearly EE did not sell you this as being suitable as a home broadband solution.
  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 16,211 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM
    to discuss user experience and technical issues so I will create a new post relating to this in the appropriate formum section. 

    You already have a second thread on this subject:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6558674/how-many-devices-are-connected-to-the-internet-in-your-home/p1
    Creating a third will not aid the matter
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM

    these posts are about the wording within an ISP's Terms of Service, a legal document and whether there there is a breach of consumer rights. 
    these posts are about consumer rights within an ISP's Terms of Service. The ISP sells both commercial and retail products. The commercial or business products are ethical in that their Terms of Service are honestly stated. The retail Terms of Service by comparison are unethical and may breach consumer rights.
    AIUI, your issue is that the product offers "never run out of data" or "unlimited data" but also has a clause restricting tethering to twelve devices.
    You want to tether more than twelve devices, so exceeding the terms of the contract.

    I fail to understand how that is unethical by the supplier or breaching consumer rights.

    Thank you for replying…what has been presented on the forum is not opinion but evidence regarding the ethical behaviour of an ISP. The issue of tethering will be raised under a new thread relating to user experience in an appropriate section of the forum.

    The ethical concern relates to oversight by Ofcom of ISP and transparency a requirement under Implementing the European Electronic Communications Code. For your convenience their website link can be found here.

  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 16,211 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM

    Thank you for replying…what has been presented on the forum is not opinion but evidence regarding the ethical behaviour of an ISP. The issue of tethering will be raised under a new thread relating to user experience in an appropriate section of the forum.

    The ethical concern relates to oversight by Ofcom of ISP and transparency a requirement under Implementing the European Electronic Communications Code. For your convenience their website link can be found here.

    No-one has presented any evidence about the ethical behaviour of an ISP.
    A third thread on the same subject will help no-one.
  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 16,836 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM

    these posts are about the wording within an ISP's Terms of Service, a legal document and whether there there is a breach of consumer rights. 
    these posts are about consumer rights within an ISP's Terms of Service. The ISP sells both commercial and retail products. The commercial or business products are ethical in that their Terms of Service are honestly stated. The retail Terms of Service by comparison are unethical and may breach consumer rights.
    AIUI, your issue is that the product offers "never run out of data" or "unlimited data" but also has a clause restricting tethering to twelve devices.
    You want to tether more than twelve devices, so exceeding the terms of the contract.

    I fail to understand how that is unethical by the supplier or breaching consumer rights.

    Thank you for replying…what has been presented on the forum is not opinion but evidence regarding the ethical behaviour of an ISP. The issue of tethering will be raised under a new thread relating to user experience in an appropriate section of the forum.

    The ethical concern relates to oversight by Ofcom of ISP and transparency a requirement under Implementing the European Electronic Communications Code. For your convenience their website link can be found here.

    So you think it's ethical to take a mobile phone sim & put it in a router, when the same supplier has a product designed for exactly the purpose you require, except it is more expensive.
    Then bemoan their T/C on the product 🤷‍♀️

    Some sim provider forbid tethering.  
    Life in the slow lane
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 31 October at 12:25PM

    these posts are about the wording within an ISP's Terms of Service, a legal document and whether there there is a breach of consumer rights. 
    these posts are about consumer rights within an ISP's Terms of Service. The ISP sells both commercial and retail products. The commercial or business products are ethical in that their Terms of Service are honestly stated. The retail Terms of Service by comparison are unethical and may breach consumer rights.
    AIUI, your issue is that the product offers "never run out of data" or "unlimited data" but also has a clause restricting tethering to twelve devices.
    You want to tether more than twelve devices, so exceeding the terms of the contract.

    I fail to understand how that is unethical by the supplier or breaching consumer rights.

    Thank you for replying…what has been presented on the forum is not opinion but evidence regarding the ethical behaviour of an ISP. The issue of tethering will be raised under a new thread relating to user experience in an appropriate section of the forum.

    The ethical concern relates to oversight by Ofcom of ISP and transparency a requirement under Implementing the European Electronic Communications Code. For your convenience their website link can be found here.

    So you think it's ethical to take a mobile phone sim & put it in a router, when the same supplier has a product designed for exactly the purpose you require, except it is more expensive.
    Then bemoan their T/C on the product 🤷‍♀️

    Some sim provider forbid tethering.  
    Thank you for your opinion...please provide evidence of the product you allude to.

  • outtatune said:
    EE are offering a service. Plenty of alternatives are available.
    If you don't like their terms, don't buy their service.
    Thank you for your opinion...I agree, so why would I.
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