Scottish Power Meter type

brokendoll

There are two leccy meters/ mpans registered for my address. SP insist that 1 meter is exclusively for the heating system. I have an air pump heating system that was installed in 2013. (There is a certificate that states the two matching white meters pictured were both installed together at that time and an old meter disconnected in 2013).

The white meter on the right is blank/doesn't blink and it has no cables running to it so I believe it is disconnected.

In early 2023, before I took on the lease, the fuse box for the whole house was replaced. The previous tenant confirmed SP had to attend the property before the owner could complete the fuse box installation as it was an outdated heating/meter system the regular guy couldn't do (but she's unsure what they exactly did). SP say they cannot confirm or deny that an engineer visited the property at that time.

I'm with social housing and they don't have proof of anything to do with the meters. So I have to request they come out and confirm if the blank meter is disconnected from the heating system or not (at SP request as SP won't send their own engineer as obvs they're not allowed to touch the heating system).

Its tricky to switch suppliers with this alleged meter type - They insist I have a 'comfort plus control' meter. However the actual meter type that is fitted (landis 5235a) appears to be a single rate meter (I certainly don't have any information as to when these different rates kick in, no clues from my meter or billing). 

They ask me to press the button for a second read (there is no button). 

Can anyone confirm this is a single rate meter for me? (The one on the left with cables works) How would I find out what and when the rates change? 

Is there any way that the blank white meter (to the right, with no cables) is wired in somehow, despite no external cables showing? Is it wired in from behind? 

(The cables of the working meter connect to the series 7 unit).

 
I have looked up info on restricted meters etc, I presume originally the second meter provided the heating rate.
However, individually, I believe this meter type is a single rate meter. While SP acknowledges the second meter looks disconnected from the photo, the database says it's connected, yet they won't come out to check if it's just broken, they demand proof I'm struggling to provide).

The main issue is they're not accepting my meter readings despite photo evidence, as they won't accept the correct meter numbers of the working/blank meters or switch them round to indicate which is at 0/the control one and which one is actually moving. So they're billing me estimates that are way over my usage.

Ideally I can get them to confirm the actual meter type, update the national database and then I can switch suppliers, (once they've acknowledged my readings were in fact accurate and billed me correctly).

(I'm waiting to hear back from the housing association to confirm the disconnection and see what proof they can provide, but thought I'd ask here in meantime.) 

On the off chance it IS connected, where do I go from here, report it as broken?

Sorry it's long, thanks for your input, if anyone's had anything similar resolved, I feel for you, any tips welcome.

Gerry1

Looks like you had a Radio Teleswitch and meter which have been disconnected, but the technichian failed to remove them.

The new meter is too blurred to see the details, but is likely to be single rate or Economy 7.

BTW, best not to say 'White Meter': that was one of the first tariffs for use with storage heaters back in the 70s.  It gave 8 hours overnight at the lower rate, but was superseded by Economy 7.

Best to submit a formal written complaint and go to the ombudsman upon receipt of a deadlock letter, or after 8 weeks if they don't send one.

Scot_39

I am not a domestic electrician or a meter fitter - but looking at the picture - it's clear - why you are now confused - or more so IMO SP are clearly out of sync with your current metering config if still billing you as an RTS CPC customer.

I assume the meter next to the RTS and the RTS show no signs of active operation (no display on meter, no LEDs etc) - only the LHS meter.

And the only power route now - appears to be from incoming fuse - Brown live and Blue nuetral - wires to LHS of LHS meter - power out of LHS meter Brown and Blue to Isolator Switch - and grey wires from isolator - to your consumer unit.

It first of all struck me you have either been caught by someone other than SP modifying the home and/or meter wiring - or SP somehow did or authorised the work (if use external meter fitters) - but failed to update the tariff (if work done whilst you were the customer) - and still billing you for the comfort plus control on two rates / two registers) and/or the meter database (if billing you correctly on a single rate 1 mpan tariff). 

However, possibly more likely, given you are a relatively new tennant, when you first registered with SP as their new customer - SP probably went back to the meter database / MPAN codes (*) - and so maybe defaulted you to the database meter / tariff type - CPC - from day 1.  (Despite possibly billing older tennant at time of modificaton on a single rate tariff **).

Which they should of course had have updated if did the work.

I think the system was CPC - the RTS doing the restricted switching wired via the second 5235A - but from that photo to me looks like since has been rewired to a simply single rate metering / billing / use.

Possibly in 2023 rather than 2013.  When perhaps also a second off peak second consumer unit might have been removed.

The 5235A is AFAIK single rate - the 5235D was the brands sister dual rate model ( in reality both came from the Ampy brand prior to L+G takeover)  - but it didn't split the circuits for billing purposes - as per the CPC tariff model - hence probably two 5235As.  You can find a user manual on line for the 5235 series - that confirms that.

I cannot read the model number on the second meter - but it looks the same - and so the feeds would probably be as per the other model - if present - thick (even if slightly smaller diameter) and bottom entry.

The RTS time switch and the second white meter - have no visible meter tails - the blue and brown wires are relatively new installs - probalbly c2013 .  I would expect those as above to be bottom entry - all other Hortsmann RTS and Ampy / Landis 5235A pictures I can see from a quick google - are.

CPC - is one of many bespoke legacy multirate systems by SP - see page on electric heating - its an old S Scotland SP 2 rate special

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

The old RTS was used to very the time for the restricted circuits - some form of HW immersion and some form of central heat store or per room Night Storage Heaters etc prior to ASHP I guess.

There is perhaps no good reason an ASHP would be wired to a restricted time circuit per se - even a modern e7 mix (breakeven vs SR At c30-40+% off peak) - let alone one designed - so probably priced - for 60% off peak load anyway.

[Aside When EOn replaced my old main meter and HW . NSH feed RTS meter - not timeswitch - they took it away - and the old second meter away to leave a clean install (both were their property in any case).  See no good reason why SP wouldn't have (which makes me wonder a little if / why ???)

Edit 1030 am Sat - But given the previous tennant saying tge cu fitter needed SP support for dual metering suspect they did have SP do the work.  It can from a range of comments take weeks or months to resolve in more complex cases to get meter records updated - but SP should be able to sort internal billing and potential refunds almost immediately ]

What does the tariff on your current bills say (sadly sounds likes stuck on CPC - with the estimates and normal / control switching comments -  which makes me worry about who might have disconnected the meters) ?

How many meter readings does it show ?

Do you actually pay 2 Standing Charges for the 2 MPAN's ?

Notes

(*)   Others who have moved off of say e7 onto SR - as not using enough off-peak - have been bounced back onto e7 at a new supplier after a switch (by choice or SoLR etc) - some able to switch to SR almost immediately again - others getting nowhere for months - stuck on old e7 / twin rates etc.  Some even found themselves paying 2 MPANs / 2 SC.  Because the meter database still reflects old meter / tariff types.

(**) Another reason - for suspecting it could be a meter database fault

Often suppliers do address their own billing system fixes for the current bill payer - but are poorer at keeping external records up to date.  It's not that uncommon - seen several posts here - and on other older forums - like for my legacy e10.

Where people who have quite hapily been seeing correct new meter arrangement MPAN and tariff rates etc at the current supplier on bills - have found find old RTS system or second meter MPAN codes / numbers for old twin meter system remain as ghosts on the national records for their address - but only found out when tried to move - maybe several years later.  

IIRC only suppliers can - and normally the responsible supplier at the time of meter change should  - request updates to the national records.

So check your bills for tariff / 2 readings vs single rate, talk to SP again, and if you don't get anywhere - escalate to complaint level, edit 1030am sat by email with that image attached Ombusdman 8 weeks later.

To me - if they have seen that photo (have they ?) - and not just photos of the meter readings (again presumably one live reading  one blank) and wont take it as evidence - they do need to send a meter engineer.  

I wouldn't expect a typical customer service operator to understand wiring - but a meter fitter would be asking big questions about any remaining CPC or twin rate billing of any sort operation.

If they don't believe they did the work - they need to take it up with landlords / previous tennants etc - not blame you.

And then once they have - and if agree is in fact single rate - need to bill you correctly on SR tariff according to your opening single reading and current single reading.

The active lhs 5235A has it's anti-tamper wire in tact - make sure it remains so - until SP visit.

The second and the RTS - appear not to have.  Again a SP fitter would I suspect have refitted - it still a live part of system.

Ildhund

I'm wondering what the meter exchange label sitting on top of the RTS box says. It's most likely from the time the new meter was installed and should give the serial numbers of the old and new ones, together with the readings on both. It should also be dated. That may be all the evidence you need.

brokendoll

Gerry1 said:

Looks like you had a Radio Teleswitch and meter which have been disconnected, but the technichian failed to remove them.

The new meter is too blurred to see the details, but is likely to be single rate or Economy 7.

BTW, best not to say 'White Meter': that was one of the first tariffs for use with storage heaters back in the 70s.  It gave 8 hours overnight at the lower rate, but was superseded by Economy 7.

Best to submit a formal written complaint and go to the ombudsman upon receipt of a deadlock letter, or after 8 weeks if they don't send one.

Thanks so much. I'll make sure to avoid that terminology in my correspondence with them. I'm hoping the HA can give some form of proof/record that it's disconnected without touching it, before it's back in SPs hands to come and change the meter, only to find it's already the type they'd likely be changing it to. Good news is SP finally billed me using the first reading I'd given them. They haven't used any of the others but it's significantly less than what they'd originally billed me for. So it's progress.

brokendoll

Ildhund said:

I'm wondering what the meter exchange label sitting on top of the RTS box says. It's most likely from the time the new meter was installed and should give the serial numbers of the old and new ones, together with the readings on both. It should also be dated. That may be all the evidence you need.

Unfortunately not, (imagine life being that simple haha). I did show them it just in case it was useful, when they first asked me for a certificate for 'when I removed the heating system.' 

It is actually proof of the two meters being fitted in 2013, which would've been when the Air pump heating system was fitted, and the removal of a different meter at that time. It did help me confirm with the HA the year the APHS was fitted, which helped me down the path of reading about these old style set ups. Thank you for taking time to reply though.

brokendoll

Scot_39 said:

I am not a domestic electrician or a meter fitter - but looking at the picture - it's clear - why you are now confused - or more so IMO SP are clearly out of sync with your current metering config if still billing you as an RTS CPC customer.

I assume the meter next to the RTS and the RTS show no signs of active operation (no display on meter, no LEDs etc) - only the LHS meter.

And the only power route now - appears to be from incoming fuse - Brown live and Blue nuetral - wires to LHS of LHS meter - power out of LHS meter Brown and Blue to Isolator Switch - and grey wires from isolator - to your consumer unit.

It first of all struck me you have either been caught by someone other than SP modifying the home and/or meter wiring - or SP somehow did or authorised the work (if use external meter fitters) - but failed to update the tariff (if work done whilst you were the customer) - and still billing you for the comfort plus control on two rates / two registers) and/or the meter database (if billing you correctly on a single rate 1 mpan tariff). 

However, possibly more likely, given you are a relatively new tennant, when you first registered with SP as their new customer - SP probably went back to the meter database / MPAN codes (*) - and so maybe defaulted you to the database meter / tariff type - CPC - from day 1.  (Despite possibly billing older tennant at time of modificaton on a single rate tariff **).

Which they should of course had have updated if did the work.

I think the system was CPC - the RTS doing the restricted switching wired via the second 5235A - but from that photo to me looks like since has been rewired to a simply single rate metering / billing / use.

Possibly in 2023 rather than 2013.  When perhaps also a second off peak second consumer unit might have been removed.

The 5235A is AFAIK single rate - the 5235D was the brands sister dual rate model ( in reality both came from the Ampy brand prior to L+G takeover)  - but it didn't split the circuits for billing purposes - as per the CPC tariff model - hence probably two 5235As.  You can find a user manual on line for the 5235 series - that confirms that.

I cannot read the model number on the second meter - but it looks the same - and so the feeds would probably be as per the other model - if present - thick (even if slightly smaller diameter) and bottom entry.

The RTS time switch and the second white meter - have no visible meter tails - the blue and brown wires are relatively new installs - probalbly c2013 .  I would expect those as above to be bottom entry - all other Hortsmann RTS and Ampy / Landis 5235A pictures I can see from a quick google - are.

CPC - is one of many bespoke legacy multirate systems by SP - see page on electric heating - its an old S Scotland SP 2 rate special

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

The old RTS was used to very the time for the restricted circuits - some form of HW immersion and some form of central heat store or per room Night Storage Heaters etc prior to ASHP I guess.

There is perhaps no good reason an ASHP would be wired to a restricted time circuit per se - even a modern e7 mix (breakeven vs SR At c30-40+% off peak) - let alone one designed - so probably priced - for 60% off peak load anyway.

[Aside When EOn replaced my old main meter and HW . NSH feed RTS meter - not timeswitch - they took it away - and the old second meter away to leave a clean install (both were their property in any case).  See no good reason why SP wouldn't have (which makes me wonder a little if / why ???)

Edit 1030 am Sat - But given the previous tennant saying tge cu fitter needed SP support for dual metering suspect they did have SP do the work.  It can from a range of comments take weeks or months to resolve in more complex cases to get meter records updated - but SP should be able to sort internal billing and potential refunds almost immediately ]

What does the tariff on your current bills say (sadly sounds likes stuck on CPC - with the estimates and normal / control switching comments -  which makes me worry about who might have disconnected the meters) ?

How many meter readings does it show ?

Do you actually pay 2 Standing Charges for the 2 MPAN's ?

Notes

(*)   Others who have moved off of say e7 onto SR - as not using enough off-peak - have been bounced back onto e7 at a new supplier after a switch (by choice or SoLR etc) - some able to switch to SR almost immediately again - others getting nowhere for months - stuck on old e7 / twin rates etc.  Some even found themselves paying 2 MPANs / 2 SC.  Because the meter database still reflects old meter / tariff types.

(**) Another reason - for suspecting it could be a meter database fault

Often suppliers do address their own billing system fixes for the current bill payer - but are poorer at keeping external records up to date.  It's not that uncommon - seen several posts here - and on other older forums - like for my legacy e10.

Where people who have quite hapily been seeing correct new meter arrangement MPAN and tariff rates etc at the current supplier on bills - have found find old RTS system or second meter MPAN codes / numbers for old twin meter system remain as ghosts on the national records for their address - but only found out when tried to move - maybe several years later.  

IIRC only suppliers can - and normally the responsible supplier at the time of meter change should  - request updates to the national records.

So check your bills for tariff / 2 readings vs single rate, talk to SP again, and if you don't get anywhere - escalate to complaint level, edit 1030am sat by email with that image attached Ombusdman 8 weeks later.

To me - if they have seen that photo (have they ?) - and not just photos of the meter readings (again presumably one live reading  one blank) and wont take it as evidence - they do need to send a meter engineer.  

I wouldn't expect a typical customer service operator to understand wiring - but a meter fitter would be asking big questions about any remaining CPC or twin rate billing of any sort operation.

If they don't believe they did the work - they need to take it up with landlords / previous tennants etc - not blame you.

And then once they have - and if agree is in fact single rate - need to bill you correctly on SR tariff according to your opening single reading and current single reading.

The active lhs 5235A has it's anti-tamper wire in tact - make sure it remains so - until SP visit.

The second and the RTS - appear not to have.  Again a SP fitter would I suspect have refitted - it still a live part of system.

This is so helpful thank you.

You are correct the RTS is disconnected/inactive.

I only have the previous tenants word that SP did send someone out to tend to the meters in order for the Housing Association to connect it up to the new fuse box.

Hopefully the HA can confirm this somehow, it may be on record that they came out, couldn't do it and had to come back once SP had been, which would at least give me a time frame to ask SP to check their visit records. They said 'if it is not updated then we do not have any option to check the record.'- clear as mud. 

I have read on various forums that not every SP engineer is equipped to deal with the older set ups, so customers have had to have a different SP engineer come out to do the job. 

It is possible SP authorised the work and then it wasn't communicated back to them that is was disconnected however.

My bills state the two meters are both comfort plus control meters. Fortunately I am not being charged a standing charge for the second meter. One advisors attitude was 'well you're only being charged for one meter so don't worry about it,it doesn't matter which number it is.'

It's still a problem in regards to my tariff and them not accepting the reads though. 

Both are 5235A models. The working one only gives one read, there's no way to change the display at all. 

I'm on the standard online tariff which isn't the best value (ironically I joined as I didn't want to sign up for a long term contract but now can't switch until this is fixed). When I tried to get a quote from eon online, for example, it looked up the database and saw I was on a 'multi rate meter' so couldn't quote me online. 

I do have to give two readings still. 

For meter A (working) I give them the reading. 

For meter B (blank, no cables) I give the reading 00000.

They always bill it as 00005 but no charge. 

BUT they mix the meter numbers up, as they think meter A is the 00005 one. 

My photo evidence shows them that the reading is from Meter A, they put it in the system and tell me the bill will be 3-5 days, however it then gets rejected, comes up as an error, and they send it with an estimate instead. On repeat. 

I have sent them photos of every detail of the set up, but as you said not every department will know what is going on. 

Hopefully the HA can come up with some evidence. If it's not enough I'll escalate it to complaint status. 

Thanks so much for putting my mind at ease. Even if it's not a firm solution, it's reassuring that it looks that is what's happening, as speaking to them in circles is crazy making. It's like they just can't see what is obvious. 

They basically can't send an engineer out because they don't have permission to disconnect the heating system. So I have to confirm that it's done. 

Speculation, but it does seem as though they can tell it's disconnected from the photo but just want the proof about the heating from this end. 

On the other hand they keep saying, 'uninstall your heating system, then we can disconnect the meter. It's not feesible to run your heating system on the same meter.'- which I understand for certain systems, but I don't believe this is the case here. 

I wish I'd just said my meters broken, and they'd sent someone out and realised what's happening. 

I predict where they will next get muddled is when they come to fit a new meter and find it's already in place. 

I'm sure they could at least check as the meter itself is their responsibility. I did notice the presence /absence of tamper wire as well. 

I'll make sure that if the HA comes to look they don't mess with that. 

In good news, since I posted they have sent me a new bill with first and last meter readings accepted. (I had to provide many photos, screenshots etc). They didn't take into account the many other readings I gave them but I'm £700 in credit now and I've been able to reduce my DD. 

Just need the HA to come and do their thing now so they can update their/national database and I'm not stuck on repeat.
Thanks again.

Gerry1

Best not to say 'Air Pump' because that may confuse a few people.  Try 'Air Source Heat Pump' or ASHP.  As Ground Source Heat Pumps are very rare, plain old 'Heatpump' will usually suffice.

Scot_39

Not the first time I've come across suppliers asking for an independent electricians report - that all essential services will continue to operate if they come to remove a meter.

Some will also then charge a fee to come and do so.  More recent figure saw 1 supplier c2023 - were charging c£106 to do so (SSE/Ovo? - for a THTC user needing old second meter removing). 

But I suspect that really should be between SP and HA / social landlord to resolve, not you as tennant.

I still don't know what the sequence of events was - but assuming the wiring as is - was as your day 1 - then as above - SP and HA need to resolve any costs / responsibility / missing dare I say it permission if HA own contractors modified meters etc.

(Some contractors are certified / allowed to work on meters (removing seals, modifiying tails etc) - and others will do so - say where no isolator switches exist - e.g. to replace CU feeds - to avoid what can be significant delays - if were to chase up suppliers for permission ).

But if the SP and HA Contractor weren't aligned - as the comment from previous tennant - I suppose a potential was - HA electrician stops work as sees dual meters - SP called to disconnect meters - but doesn't remove (as no proof leaves a functioning heating system) - HA electrician comes back - fits CU - tests everything now working.  HA doesn't call SP back in to finalise works, remove 2nd meter and RTS timeswitch etc.

The fact that you are paying only one SC - is good news.

But I have no idea how the rates for standard meter and Comfort meter - if they are billing you at one or the other (the working meter - normal or comfort rate ? - and why the swaps ) - compare say to your regional SVT single rate electric price.

Good luck with HA.

brokendoll

Scot_39 said:

Not the first time I've come across suppliers asking for an independent electricians report - that all essential services will continue to operate if they come to remove a meter.

Some will also then charge a fee to come and do so.  More recent figure saw 1 supplier c2023 - were charging c£106 to do so (SSE/Ovo? - for a THTC user needing old second meter removing). 

But I suspect that really should be between SP and HA / social landlord to resolve, not you as tennant.

I still don't know what the sequence of events was - but assuming the wiring as is - was as your day 1 - then as above - SP and HA need to resolve any costs / responsibility / missing dare I say it permission if HA own contractors modified meters etc.

(Some contractors are certified / allowed to work on meters (removing seals, modifiying tails etc) - and others will do so - say where no isolator switches exist - e.g. to replace CU feeds - to avoid what can be significant delays - if were to chase up suppliers for permission ).

But if the SP and HA Contractor weren't aligned - as the comment from previous tennant - I suppose a potential was - HA electrician stops work as sees dual meters - SP called to disconnect meters - but doesn't remove (as no proof leaves a functioning heating system) - HA electrician comes back - fits CU - tests everything now working.  HA doesn't call SP back in to finalise works, remove 2nd meter and RTS timeswitch etc.

The fact that you are paying only one SC - is good news.

But I have no idea how the rates for standard meter and Comfort meter - if they are billing you at one or the other (the working meter - normal or comfort rate ? - and why the swaps ) - compare say to your regional SVT single rate electric price.

Good luck with HA.

Thanks for replying. Yes Initially when I raised the issue they weren't really understanding me and thought I wanted to fit my own meter, and said I'd have to disconnect the heating system, then they'd remove the meter for a charge of £150.

Someone else said there would be no charge for me to get an 'updated meter', but I'd have to pay to disconnect the heating first (obviously that wouldn't be happening). 

I've raised a complaint with SP over the phone. 

It was a 3 way call with a fuel advisor from my HA, which was really helpful as he was able to confirm that the HA has no paper work to confirm when the second meter was disconnected. It means there shouldn't be too much back and forth with requests for me to ask HA for proof, or them not just taking my word for it, as he was able to confirm it directly to them. 

 The HA installation specialist (for the heating systems) had a quick look at the photos and said it's very obvious that meter is not connected and referred it back to the fuel guy to deal with. Apparently he doesn't need to attend in person to confirm that, and presumably they don't have any 'official' paperwork they can issue to confirm it's disconnected, as it wasn't the HA that disconnected the meter itself, so again the responsibility for that certificate is SP. (and possibly the previous tenant, but I doubt they were issued it, if SP didn't even update their own records). 

Scottish power didn't ask me for additional photos at this stage but I've got them ready to go if need be and obviously if they do send someone out to check it can be confirmed. 

They didn't say anything regarding next steps as its not something she's dealt with before, she only documents and refers complaints. But it's a start. And I know they've got 8 weeks to respond before I can escalate it. 

Not sure I'll ever get to the bottom of what's happened, but hoping resolution comes sooner rather than later.

And if there is a charge I'll certainly be asking SP to wave it for the hassle it's caused/their lack of expertise when I've dealt with various customer service ppl. If not I'll ask the HA to cover it as it seems it's happened on their watch, meaning that when I moved in I was tied to SP and have had to fight them every step of the way. I certainly shouldn't be tied to SP over their lack of sufficient record keeping. 

Here's hoping I'll be switching soon anyway. 

It's been great to have everyone's input as you start to feel like you're on your own with it, as SP don't seem to have a clue what you're on about, thank you.