Tenants in common/Joint Tenants and care home fees (mum and daughter)

Keep_pedalling

Amyyy_123 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

You mother would be extremely foolish to gift a larger share of her home to you. How old are you? Sorry if that sounds a bit personal but if you are 60+ then the house will be disregarded in any financial assessment. 

Apologies if I've not explained this very well. The house was always meant to be mine. I paid deposits etc. We both live here, we are both young (mum 61), this post is more to find info of the best option to ensure we both have a home, I'm referring to care fees as an example I can think of that would potentially mean I would have to move out and sell the house depending on arrangements, which is why I was questioning the best option for security for both of us. 

This is a difficult thing to balance. If you have contributed more the the purchase of your home than your mother has, then switching to TiC with your unequal shares documented with a deed of trust.

CalvinHobs

I bought a house as Joint Tenants with my mum and she later had to go into a care home. I paid the mortgage on the house and mum did not contribute anything. I did this because my dad died when I was a teenager and I wanted to make sure she would never be made homeless.

I moved out of the house in my twenties but continued to own it as Joint Tenants with my mum. Many years later, she had to go into a care home and the local authority paid the care home fees. This was because mum was taken into hospital under Section 3 of the Mental Health Act 1983. After several months, the hospital decided she needed to be transferred into care. Under MHA 1983 Section 117 (aftercare), a person who has been detained for treatment under Section 3 is entitled to funded aftercare. Mum lived a further 15 years in the care home, funded by the local authority.

If my mum had originally agreed to go into hospital, she would not have been detained under Section 3 and therefore would not have been entitled to free aftercare. She knew nothing about these rules - she just didn't want to go into hospital. In this case, the local authority would have assessed 50% of the house as belonging to my mum - even though it was me who had paid for it.

When this happened I realised, in retrospect, I should have had a Deed of Trust drawn up when we purchased the house, stating our respective shares, e.g. me 99% and mum 1%.

If you have contributed more to the house purchase than your mum, then perhaps you should look into having a Deed of Trust drawn up by a solicitor. This could not be considered "intentional deprivation" by the local authority as it would be a true statement of your respective shares of the house. Without a Deed of Trust, the local authority will assume your mum's share of the house is 50%.

Jointly-owned properties and care home fees

Amyyy_123

CalvinHobs said:

I bought a house as Joint Tenants with my mum and she later had to go into a care home. I paid the mortgage on the house and mum did not contribute anything. I did this because my dad died when I was a teenager and I wanted to make sure she would never be made homeless.

I moved out of the house in my twenties but continued to own it as Joint Tenants with my mum. Many years later, she had to go into a care home and the local authority paid the care home fees. This was because mum was taken into hospital under Section 3 of the Mental Health Act 1983. After several months, the hospital decided she needed to be transferred into care. Under MHA 1983 Section 117 (aftercare), a person who has been detained for treatment under Section 3 is entitled to funded aftercare. Mum lived a further 15 years in the care home, funded by the local authority.

If my mum had originally agreed to go into hospital, she would not have been detained under Section 3 and therefore would not have been entitled to free aftercare. She knew nothing about these rules - she just didn't want to go into hospital. In this case, the local authority would have assessed 50% of the house as belonging to my mum - even though it was me who had paid for it.

When this happened I realised, in retrospect, I should have had a Deed of Trust drawn up when we purchased the house, stating our respective shares, e.g. me 99% and mum 1%.

If you have contributed more to the house purchase than your mum, then perhaps you should look into having a Deed of Trust drawn up by a solicitor. This could not be considered "intentional deprivation" by the local authority as it would be a true statement of your respective shares of the house. Without a Deed of Trust, the local authority will assume your mum's share of the house is 50%.

Jointly-owned properties and care home fees

So sorry to hear about your parents but what a lovely thing to do for your mum. 

This is very very helpful and is exactly my thoughts - so this would be Tenants in Common? And the deed of trust would ensure she got the house if I died/vice versa, or would this still need to be written in the will? 

Or can I still do a Deed of Trust as Joint Tenants? (Always assumed its always 50/50 with joint)

After some research I also gathered that if the other person moved out and the remaining had to go into care, they could force a house sale as the purpose of the joint tenancy is not a benefit for both people at that time? I could have understood this wrong

So sorry for all my questions. Thanks so much! 

elsien

I would still suggest that you are focussing too much on care costs at the moment, and not on all the other life events which might happen first.
Going back to if either of you want or need to go your separate ways and buy your own place, can you afford to do that without selling up? If one of you lives elsewhere and needs to claim means tested benefits then your share of the house will impact on that. And although you may both be fine now, none of us know what is going to happen with regards to job loss or long term illness/disability. 

CalvinHobs

This is very very helpful and is exactly my thoughts - so this would be Tenants in Common? And the deed of trust would ensure she got the house if I died/vice versa, or would this still need to be written in the will? 

Yes - Tenants in Common. As I understand it, you can't have a Deed of Trust where the property is owned as Joint Tenants. Under the rules of Joint Tenancy, if one person dies, their share automatically passes to the other person. With Tenants in Common, you would need to state in your wills to leave it to the other person.

Or can I still do a Deed of Trust as Joint Tenants? (Always assumed its always 50/50 with joint)
No, I believe you cannot have a Deed of Trust as Joint Tenants. Yes, if owned Jointly then it is 50/50.

After some research I also gathered that if the other person moved out and the remaining had to go into care, they could force a house sale as the purpose of the joint tenancy is not a benefit for both people at that time? I could have understood this wrong.
I think the Local Authority have the legal power to force a sale - whether Joint Tenants or Tenants in Common - unless the property is disregarded for some reason, e.g. someone under 18 or over 60 is living there. However, in practice they use a different mechanism. The Local Authority offer a deferred payment agreement (DPA) so care fees are paid when the person dies. They place a charge on the property so that when it is sold, care fees have to be paid out of the proceeds. If the property is not sold when the person dies, they seek payment from whoever inherits the property.

Changing to Tenants in Common would ringfence your own share of the property and protect it from the Local Authority. As for your mum's share - if she was to go into care, the Local Authority would include it as part of their financial assessment.

A new law was in the pipeline which would have capped care fees to £86,000 for a person's lifetime. Unfortunately, the proposed law was scrapped in July 2024.