Confusion over right to park in 'communal/visitor' bays within a boundary line

GrumpyDil

Just a minor observation but on a property I owned some time back the access leading to the parking spaces behind the house was part of my title with relevant properties having the right to use the access to get to their parking spots and an obligation to pay a proportionate amount of any maintenance needed on the access. 

I suspect that is the same with the parking spaces because the developer would have wanted to dispose of all the land rather than retaining obligations. Different now given how many new build estates have management companies/estate charges etc. 

lilahloo

RHemmings said:

Oh, other houses as well. It looks like there are going to be quite a few title  plans needed to work out exactly what the situation is. It's a good thing they're only £3 each. 

Some of the houses in your street have additional titles for 'Land Associated With <address>', which should be the dedicated parking spaces when not contiguous with the properties. You have one, but not the person across the road, as far as I can see. (Please don't assume that I have things right). 

I have the title plan for your neighbour. It looks utterly identical to what you posted, except that the black line showing the boundary was originally red. There is no coloured shading, nor additional text that I can see. 

Their title register doesn't have anything particular about car parking spaces. But, it refers to things that aren't on the title register. E.g. 

The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is subject to the rights reserved by the Transfer dated <date redacted> referred to in the Charges Register.

and (normal but for completeness):

The Transfer dated <date redacted> referred to above contains provisions as to light or air and boundary structures.

But, in the Charges Register it only says:

A Transfer of the land in this title dated 29 September 1989 made between (1) Bovis Homes Limited and (2) Helen Joy Williamson contains restrictive covenants. ¬NOTE: Original filed.

Apart from that, pretty much just the charge lodged by NatWest, presumably for the mortgage. 

I thought that if I looked at the documents, then things would become clear. But, I feel that I know even less than I did before. 

I will say that the deeds I see for the person across the road show nothing that makes it look any less than one of the two parking spaces belonging to the neighbour. Clearly that's inconsistent with the other deeds for other properties, including your own OP. But, if the owner of 69 only has the deeds I saw, I can see how they would think the parking place is private. (I'm not expecting me saying that is in any way useful.) 

EDIT: OP, I stopped at downloading any of your titles. I already know how much you paid for your house and when (earlier, and a lot less than your across the road neighbour paid), and if I look at your documents I'll know your names and all. 

I've had a look now and the Title Plan from Land Registry only shows the boundary, so it doesn't help me.  It's the same plan he gave to me. 

What I need/want to see is his plan that shows all the houses with their allocated parking - like the one I posted and I've given him a copy of.  One of my neighbour's who lived further down the road (and has since moved) sent me a copy of her Title Plan and she had these bays at the top of the road marked as communal.  

It's in the Transfer document (you've redacted the date) that it states in the Second Schedule we can park in communal spaces - and the more detailed Title Plan is part of the Transfer document/Deeds.

I'm not sure what to do now - His stance is that his boundary lines trump any of the wording in my Transfer doc & Title Plan. And I can understand why he's saying that - but I'd like to see ALL his relevant paperwork before I'll be satisfied that's correct.

lilahloo

GrumpyDil said:

Just a minor observation but on a property I owned some time back the access leading to the parking spaces behind the house was part of my title with relevant properties having the right to use the access to get to their parking spots and an obligation to pay a proportionate amount of any maintenance needed on the access. 

I suspect that is the same with the parking spaces because the developer would have wanted to dispose of all the land rather than retaining obligations. Different now given how many new build estates have management companies/estate charges etc. 

This is what I think has happened and either it's not clear in his deeds, or he's choosing to ignore that part.

When we spoke about it, he just kept repeating that it was in his boundary and boundaries are mentioned in the First Schedule - that's the most important.  That I keep referring to the Second Schedule, but the First Schedule is what's important.  I tried to explain that they might be within his boundary but they could still be communal and that's what my plans and at least two of the neighbours plans show, but of course he doesn't want to hear or accept that.

Jellynailer

Have just logged on after a busy day and am a bit confused as to where we are with this but think it is worth me pointing out that the document that you posted that shows numbered parking spaces  is from your transfer deed.  

The two £3 LR documents are title showing owners names and any charges etc; and the corresponding site plan shows what is owned.  

What you need to buy is your neighbour's transfer deed = the pages of schedules and attached plan.

On your transfer deed plan, your parking space is in front of your next door neighbour's house - No.2 who have one space next to this.  Opposite your house are two spaces marked P and coloured purple.  These are at the side of No 69 near the 3 single parking spaces for 69 to 71.  You need to buy from LR is the transfer deeds of the neighbour that is causing you grief so you can see what is in the schedules as well as what is shown in the plan attached to these.  If I remember rightly the cost was £38 in 2009 but the set of documents is essential to resolve the dispute.

I hope this is clear but buy from LR.gov.uk and not the private .co.uk companies that are charging far more than you need to pay.

ThisIsWeird

Have you asked Bovis yet? They presumably know what it was they intended. And will hopefully/surely have site and development plans to indicate this.

lilahloo

Jellynailer said:

Have just logged on after a busy day and am a bit confused as to where we are with this but think it is worth me pointing out that the document that you posted that shows numbered parking spaces  is from your transfer deed.  

The two £3 LR documents are title showing owners names and any charges etc; and the corresponding site plan shows what is owned.  

What you need to buy is your neighbour's transfer deed = the pages of schedules and attached plan.

On your transfer deed plan, your parking space is in front of your next door neighbour's house - No.2 who have one space next to this.  Opposite your house are two spaces marked P and coloured purple.  These are at the side of No 69 near the 3 single parking spaces for 69 to 71.  You need to buy from LR is the transfer deeds of the neighbour that is causing you grief so you can see what is in the schedules as well as what is shown in the plan attached to these.  If I remember rightly the cost was £38 in 2009 but the set of documents is essential to resolve the dispute.

I hope this is clear but buy from LR.gov.uk and not the private .co.uk companies that are charging far more than you need to pay.

Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond - that's exactly what I need, but I didn't know what it was called and if I could obtain it.

I posted a copy of the £3 site plan but I removed it because I'd inadvertently left on an identifying street - as you say, it shows he owns the land, it's within his boundary.  But my Transfer deeds state i have access to it for parking. Hence the confusion.

lilahloo

ThisIsWeird said:

Have you asked Bovis yet? They presumably know what it was they intended. And will hopefully/surely have site and development plans to indicate this.

I'm going to try them today - thanks for the suggestion.

lilahloo

I contacted Bovis but they say they don't hold information going back that far.

I've spoken with Land Registry and have ordered what I hope is the Transfer Deeds.  They will take about a week to come.

I'm not sure whether I should acknowledge his letter in the mean time and say......

• The Title Plans provided only show the boundaries and it is possible for land within a boundary to  be accessible to people other than the land owner.

• I don't dispute the communal parking falls within his boundary, but the documentation provided so far doesn't show that only the land owner has the right to park there.

• So that we can resolve the matter quickly and without involving solicitors, it would be really helpful If he can provide me with the detailed Title Plan and the Second Schedule from his Transfer Deeds.

I don't want to inflame the situation but I also want him to know I'm not ready to accept that he's right without more proof.

ThisIsWeird

I don't think I'd do anything yet - simply no need, and you don't have all the facts anyway. There'd be nowt worse than having to backtrack...
This letter of his was just that - his? Not from a solicitor?
I'd leave it for now, and carry on as usual - if you need to park there, park there. If he approaches you, just explain with a smile that you hear what he says, but that it disagrees with what's in your deeds. You are therefore investigating the true situation, and will let him know what you discover; "You want to know the facts too, don't you?". Meanwhile, afayac, the status quo continues. 
Do you have CCTV that covers that area, and that could capture conversations too? Just in case he becomes bolshie - it won't serve him well.
Meanwhile, don't be fazed - stick to the mantra, whatever he claims; "You want to know the facts too...?"

Schwarzwald

lilahloo said:

[...] 'The right when same shall be available to use on a first come first served basis to park a private motor vehicle or light commercial van for reasonable periods only in any of the communal parking areas [..]'.

[....] I parked in one of the bays for a week [...] 

this matter is secondary to the discussion ongoing reg right to actually park there.
But assuming you do, i would argue that parking there for a week throughout without moving your vehicle is not a reasonable period for communal parking spaces thar are to be used on first come first served.
But ultimately that is down to legal interpretation, but just "socially" ... i dont think that is the intended use case.