Confusion over right to park in 'communal/visitor' bays within a boundary line

Jellynailer

This is the second thread that cites £3 as the cost of obtaining a neighbour's deeds.  I paid much more than this in 2009 but it was worth it.  A solicitor will charge more if they do it.

The issues were a) neighbours parking on my land and b) leaseholders walking across my land from an adjacent development. In discussion with Land Registry (phone them) there were 2 sets of transfer deeds (4 freehold properties each) drawn up at different times  (as the developer completed each stage) and a lease for 5 flats.  The lease stated a right to cross my land but LR found a developer's update registered after the 8 freehold properties were sold which removed the leaseholders' rights to cross my land. 

For the parking issue, the prevailing set of deeds in my case was my deeds as the first property sold in the first set of 4 freehold deeds.  It is not the same as your issue but my experience points to a) checking titles to see which property was first sold; b) buying the neighbour's deeds; and c) checking if the developer updated.  If you then need to consult a solicitor, at least the cost will be lower than if you did not have this information.

Hope this is helpful

RHemmings

Jellynailer said:

This is the second thread that cites £3 as the cost of obtaining a neighbour's deeds.  I paid much more than this in 2009 but it was worth it.  A solicitor will charge more if they do it.

There are ways of obtaining deeds that cost more than £3 which are worth it. However, there are many pages online offering to provide deeds for a cost much higher than £3, but which only supply the £3 deeds. Hence, it's good to remind people of the price. People should only pay more than £3 if they know what they are doing and know that they are receiving more than the £3 deeds.

For the OP: If you anonymise deeds, please make sure you remove all numbers you don't recognise. There have been deeds posted on here in the past where the names of roads etc. were obscured, but the title number was still there. 

lilahloo

Jellynailer said:

This is the second thread that cites £3 as the cost of obtaining a neighbour's deeds.  I paid much more than this in 2009 but it was worth it.  A solicitor will charge more if they do it.

The issues were a) neighbours parking on my land and b) leaseholders walking across my land from an adjacent development. In discussion with Land Registry (phone them) there were 2 sets of transfer deeds (4 freehold properties each) drawn up at different times  (as the developer completed each stage) and a lease for 5 flats.  The lease stated a right to cross my land but LR found a developer's update registered after the 8 freehold properties were sold which removed the leaseholders' rights to cross my land. 

For the parking issue, the prevailing set of deeds in my case was my deeds as the first property sold in the first set of 4 freehold deeds.  It is not the same as your issue but my experience points to a) checking titles to see which property was first sold; b) buying the neighbour's deeds; and c) checking if the developer updated.  If you then need to consult a solicitor, at least the cost will be lower than if you did not have this information.

Hope this is helpful

Thanks that helps and before I decide whether to approach a solicitor I wanted to get as much of the facts together as I can - if I have completely misunderstood then I’m prepared to hold my hands up and say I was wrong - I feel like I’m being stupid but I’m struggling to see the £3 deeds. I’ve seen I can buy title plan and title register for £19.95 each and a conveyance pack for £34.95.

user1977

lilahloo said:

Jellynailer said:

This is the second thread that cites £3 as the cost of obtaining a neighbour's deeds.  I paid much more than this in 2009 but it was worth it.  A solicitor will charge more if they do it.

The issues were a) neighbours parking on my land and b) leaseholders walking across my land from an adjacent development. In discussion with Land Registry (phone them) there were 2 sets of transfer deeds (4 freehold properties each) drawn up at different times  (as the developer completed each stage) and a lease for 5 flats.  The lease stated a right to cross my land but LR found a developer's update registered after the 8 freehold properties were sold which removed the leaseholders' rights to cross my land. 

For the parking issue, the prevailing set of deeds in my case was my deeds as the first property sold in the first set of 4 freehold deeds.  It is not the same as your issue but my experience points to a) checking titles to see which property was first sold; b) buying the neighbour's deeds; and c) checking if the developer updated.  If you then need to consult a solicitor, at least the cost will be lower than if you did not have this information.

Hope this is helpful

Thanks that helps and before I decide whether to approach a solicitor I wanted to get as much of the facts together as I can - if I have completely misunderstood then I’m prepared to hold my hands up and say I was wrong - I feel like I’m being stupid but I’m struggling to see the £3 deeds. I’ve seen I can buy title plan and title register for £19.95 each and a conveyance pack for £34.95.

You’re looking at a rip-off site, go and find the actual land registry (gov.uk) and don’t click on adverts instead.

lilahloo

ThisIsWeird said:

lilahloo said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I wonder what this means, what its intention is; "to park a private motor vehicle or light commercial van for reasonable periods only..."

It's clearly not there as a second parking space for anyone on an even semi-permanent basis - first come first served or not - but more likely there for visitors, who'd park only temporarily? But, for this, the spaces would usually be clearly assigned for 'visitors' on the deeds. So, not sure who the intended parkees are.

However, if these spaces are coloured purple on your neighb's deeds too, and accompanied by the same wording as on yours, then he has no greater rights over them than you do.

It could even be that the extent of his property as shown in his deeds - outlined in red - includes these spaces, but provided the colour is purple, and they are referred to in his deeds with the same wording as yours, he has no greater rights than you, even tho' he 'owns' them!

It's like when you have a shared road to a number of houses, often the sections of that road immediately in line with each house will be shown as belonging to that house - the red property boundary lines will extend out and enclose that section of road, and your neighbours ditto - so each house 'owns' a piece of that road. However, the deeds will make it clear what can, and can not, be done on that road, and that usually excludes parking, for example. 

If you could post on here both your deeds maps, and your equivalent texts, it should become clear.

From what you've described, it may well be that this neighbour 'owns' these spaces, and therefore presumed he had a greater right to park there than you. But he may end up with egg.

And he'll likely have problems with other homeowners too, if they are regularly parking their second vehicles in these spaces.

I have to ask, tho' - why did you park in one of these spaces for a week? :-)

Thanks - because he hasn't included any of the wording from his deeds in his letter attachments, my thinking is there is no explicit wording that the spaces belong to his house.  He is saying the boundary takes priority - I understand what he's saying and why he thinks like that but at the same time I have my deeds that state they are communal. But like you say the wording is weird.
Last year a family member had parked in my space and gone away for a week.  I used the communal space because it was free.  It was during that week he knocked my door and we had the first conversation about it and I put a copy of my paperwork through his door to show him why I believed I wasn't doing anything wrong.

Thanks.

We need both sets of plans, please, or there will be no way to figure out what's going on.

(You did the right thing, I think, by allowing your family member to use your space, and then presumably you used one of these 'free' spaces 'for a reasonable period only', as is clearly your absolute right.)

I suspect your thinking on his deeds not having any wording will be wrong - almost certainly, it will. It should.

It really is looking as tho' the guy has misunderstood the significance of his 'ownership', and the most likely fact that it's really more like a Freeholder's responsibility that he has - ie, he has the hassle of regulation and upkeep, getting monies from the other entitled residents for this, but has absolutely zero additional parking rights over it. Poor fellow.

But, we need their deeds. And then we need you to be magnanimous. And, if you can't be mangnan, then at least record the conversation and put it on here.

I just want to get to the bottom of the situation - I don't want it to be an issue.

I've now posted the documents I have in this thread.

Do you know, if I get the £3 deeds will they show the Title Plan as it appears on my docs (with the space numbers and boundary) or will it appear as it does on the doc he gave me that just shows his boundary.  And will I get the Transfer document for his property as well - that's where the wording regarding the parking spaces is in the second schedule of my Transfer document. If I need to order the more expensive documents I want to be sure I'm ordering the right thing.

lilahloo

user1977 said:

lilahloo said:

Jellynailer said:

This is the second thread that cites £3 as the cost of obtaining a neighbour's deeds.  I paid much more than this in 2009 but it was worth it.  A solicitor will charge more if they do it.

The issues were a) neighbours parking on my land and b) leaseholders walking across my land from an adjacent development. In discussion with Land Registry (phone them) there were 2 sets of transfer deeds (4 freehold properties each) drawn up at different times  (as the developer completed each stage) and a lease for 5 flats.  The lease stated a right to cross my land but LR found a developer's update registered after the 8 freehold properties were sold which removed the leaseholders' rights to cross my land. 

For the parking issue, the prevailing set of deeds in my case was my deeds as the first property sold in the first set of 4 freehold deeds.  It is not the same as your issue but my experience points to a) checking titles to see which property was first sold; b) buying the neighbour's deeds; and c) checking if the developer updated.  If you then need to consult a solicitor, at least the cost will be lower than if you did not have this information.

Hope this is helpful

Thanks that helps and before I decide whether to approach a solicitor I wanted to get as much of the facts together as I can - if I have completely misunderstood then I’m prepared to hold my hands up and say I was wrong - I feel like I’m being stupid but I’m struggling to see the £3 deeds. I’ve seen I can buy title plan and title register for £19.95 each and a conveyance pack for £34.95.

You’re looking at a rip-off site, go and find the actual land registry (gov.uk) and don’t click on adverts instead.

Thank you!

Found the right place now and have ordered his title plan and register.

RHemmings

lilahloo said:

This is my Title Plan

This is the land registry doc from my neighbour showing his boundary.

It's not very clear, but it looks to me as if the other person's boundary excludes one of the two parking spots, but not the other. I can't see any hint of the parking spots ever having been coloured. Though, hopefully the £3 title plans from LR will be complete and definitive. And, hopefully consistent. 

I deleted the second plan from my quote because you didn't hide your location sufficiently. Looking at satellite, those places 'look' private to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the buyer isn't finding out that they are shared until now. 



From the plan, I wonder if it's only the right hand spot that the other person's title plan excludes. 

lilahloo

RHemmings said:

lilahloo said:

This is my Title Plan

This is the land registry doc from my neighbour showing his boundary.

It's not very clear, but it looks to me as if the other person's boundary excludes one of the two parking spots, but not the other. I can't see any hint of the parking spots ever having been coloured. Though, hopefully the £3 title plans from LR will be complete and definitive. And, hopefully consistent. 

I deleted the second plan from my quote because you didn't hide your location sufficiently. Looking at satellite, those places 'look' private to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the buyer isn't finding out that they are shared until now. 



From the plan, I wonder if it's only the right hand spot that the other person's title plan excludes. 

Thanks - I've deleted that post now.  I hadn't noticed the other name!!!

The copies of the boundary plans that were shared with me aren't very clear, but it looks like one of those spaces is within the  boundary of the house on the corner and the other space is within the boundary of the house in the middle.

But on my title plan it doesn't show them as being allocated to any specific property number and this is where the confusion has arisen from and what I'm hoping to clarity on.

I need wait and see what Land Registry send me.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

ThisIsWeird

propertyrental said:

Stop referring just to your deeds, and stop 'guessing' what his (black and white/briefly viewed) deeds say.

Pay £6 and download his tile deeds so you can see the actual wording and his Title Plan.

Then come back with facts, not conjecture.

OooOOooh! And bring your handbag.

lilahloo said:

Jellynailer said:

This is the second thread that cites £3 as the cost of obtaining a neighbour's deeds.  I paid much more than this in 2009 but it was worth it.  A solicitor will charge more if they do it.

The issues were a) neighbours parking on my land and b) leaseholders walking across my land from an adjacent development. In discussion with Land Registry (phone them) there were 2 sets of transfer deeds (4 freehold properties each) drawn up at different times  (as the developer completed each stage) and a lease for 5 flats.  The lease stated a right to cross my land but LR found a developer's update registered after the 8 freehold properties were sold which removed the leaseholders' rights to cross my land.

For the parking issue, the prevailing set of deeds in my case was my deeds as the first property sold in the first set of 4 freehold deeds.  It is not the same as your issue but my experience points to a) checking titles to see which property was first sold; b) buying the neighbour's deeds; and c) checking if the developer updated.  If you then need to consult a solicitor, at least the cost will be lower than if you did not have this information. Hope this is helpful

Thanks that helps and before I decide whether to approach a solicitor I wanted to get as much of the facts together as I can - if I have completely misunderstood then I’m prepared to hold my hands up and say I was wrong - I feel like I’m being stupid but I’m struggling to see the £3 deeds. I’ve seen I can buy title plan and title register for £19.95 each and a conveyance pack for £34.95.

Please tell us you have Legal Protection included in your house insurance? Yes? Great!

We still, of course, need the neighbour's plan and text, to confirm. But, your copy seems pretty unambiguous - Purple parking spaces, and "to use on a first come first served basis to park a private motor vehicle or light commercial van for reasonable periods only in any of the communal parking areas shown coloured purple on the Plan".

I'd happily bet a £iver that this neighbour is going to be disappointed when the facts are established. You will not need a solicitor unless/until this person actually infringes on your right to park there. It should be enough for you to present the evidence to him.

Is the developer still in existence? If so, it might be worth dropping them an email too, asking for confirmation.

RHemmings

Oh, other houses as well. It looks like there are going to be quite a few title  plans needed to work out exactly what the situation is. It's a good thing they're only £3 each. 

Some of the houses in your street have additional titles for 'Land Associated With <address>', which should be the dedicated parking spaces when not contiguous with the properties. You have one, but not the person across the road, as far as I can see. (Please don't assume that I have things right). 

I have the title plan for your neighbour. It looks utterly identical to what you posted, except that the black line showing the boundary was originally red. There is no coloured shading, nor additional text that I can see. 

Their title register doesn't have anything particular about car parking spaces. But, it refers to things that aren't on the title register. E.g. 

The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is subject to the rights reserved by the Transfer dated <date redacted> referred to in the Charges Register.

and (normal but for completeness):

The Transfer dated <date redacted> referred to above contains provisions as to light or air and boundary structures.

But, in the Charges Register it only says:

A Transfer of the land in this title dated 29 September 1989 made between (1) Bovis Homes Limited and (2) Helen Joy Williamson contains restrictive covenants. ¬NOTE: Original filed.

Apart from that, pretty much just the charge lodged by NatWest, presumably for the mortgage. 

I thought that if I looked at the documents, then things would become clear. But, I feel that I know even less than I did before. 

I will say that the deeds I see for the person across the road show nothing that makes it look any less than one of the two parking spaces belonging to the neighbour. Clearly that's inconsistent with the other deeds for other properties, including your own OP. But, if the owner of 69 only has the deeds I saw, I can see how they would think the parking place is private. (I'm not expecting me saying that is in any way useful.) 

EDIT: OP, I stopped at downloading any of your titles. I already know how much you paid for your house and when (earlier, and a lot less than your across the road neighbour paid), and if I look at your documents I'll know your names and all.