Variable speed fine

drjohn67

Nasqueron said:

Basically OP is driving down the road, based on the information in the post, the speed limit changed to 40mph as they passed it then they immediately got tagged. What I am saying is, assuming no camera fault etc, they would have passed a previous gantry (or other display) saying it was 40 if the limit was changed to 40mph 3:44 before per the notice - so a bit under 3 miles before. Speed cameras obviously aren't set so that they can be changed instantly and immediately start issuing tickets.

I'm no expert in determining distances and have no knowledge of motorway gantry heights etc but I am not sure also how the gantry in question could be obscured by 2 lorries on a 4-5 lane road unless you were really close to the lorry - even in the photo above you can see the left and right displays 

The previous gantry and speed camera at junction 7 is just 30 seconds before. It was 50mph. I checked my speed limiter was 50mph was not captured there.

There were 2 HGVs arriving on M6 ahead of me joining after junction 7 - 1 overtaking the other. I was a safe distance and moved to make space for merging traffic getting a clear view of the gantry less than 50m-100m from it - ie 2-4 seconds - the speed changed <1 sec from the gantry and caught me 1 sec after passing the gantry. 

The view in the example shown above is from the roof of a camera vehicle - the view from my car seat (3-4ft lower height) was even worse than the example shown and was obscured by 2 HGVs driving alongside each other.

TooManyPoints

"1. The system record the time of changing of the speed limit was inaccurate. I saw it and am certain.

2. The camera is positioned at location where car drivers are very easily denied an adequate view of the signage until they are being photographed."

You can only realistically argue one or the other of those: (1) says you saw it and are certain whilst (2) says the view of the signage is inadequate. You can't argue both.

Your choices are clear:

Request the ticket office to reconsider their decision. If they don't then you either accept any offer they might make (almost certainly a course for that speed provided you are eligible) or see them prosecute you in court, where you will be served with their evidence beforehand.

It isn't really a question of whether or not they can be bothered. The out-of-court disposals are designed for drivers who accept the allegation unconditionally and who pay the (very much reduced) penalty. If you want to challenge it, the only place to do that (unless the ticket office is aware of any general fault or error) is in court.

Bear in mind that whatever issues you have with the offence itself, you must respond to the "request for driver's details" (which accompanies the NIP) within the 28 days allowed. Failure to do so will see you commit  separate, more serious offence which carries a hefty fine, six points and an insurance crippling endorsement code (MS90)

Car_54

Nasqueron said:

Car_54 said:

Nasqueron said:

Hoenir said:

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

If we take as gospel what OP said that the gantry changed as they passed then slamming brakes on would not be good advice, but that is a big if!

The fact they were caught at 50 would suggest their speedo was likely 52-55 anyway given that speedos never read exactly 50 and the 3 minutes is pretty damning as there would be time enough for them to see the previous one change before getting to that one 

Maybe I've misunderstood, but what is the relevance of the previous gantry?

Basically OP is driving down the road, based on the information in the post, the speed limit changed to 40mph as they passed it then they immediately got tagged. What I am saying is, assuming no camera fault etc, they would have passed a previous gantry (or other display) saying it was 40 if the limit was changed to 40mph 3:44 before per the notice - so a bit under 3 miles before. Speed cameras obviously aren't set so that they can be changed instantly and immediately start issuing tickets.

I'm no expert in determining distances and have no knowledge of motorway gantry heights etc but I am not sure also how the gantry in question could be obscured by 2 lorries on a 4-5 lane road unless you were really close to the lorry - even in the photo above you can see the left and right displays 

But the gantries don't necessarily all show the same limit. The previous gantry might have been showing anything from 20 to NSL at the time the OP's gantry changed. It has no bearing on any defence he may be planning.

BTW I share your scepticism disquiet about the visibility  excuse defence.

drjohn67

TooManyPoints said:

"1. The system record the time of changing of the speed limit was inaccurate. I saw it and am certain.

2. The camera is positioned at location where car drivers are very easily denied an adequate view of the signage until they are being photographed."

You can only realistically argue one or the other of those: (1) says you saw it and are certain whilst (2) says the view of the signage is inadequate. You can't argue both.

Your choices are clear:

Request the ticket office to reconsider their decision. If they don't then you either accept any offer they might make (almost certainly a course for that speed provided you are eligible) or see them prosecute you in court, where you will be served with their evidence beforehand.

It isn't really a question of whether or not they can be bothered. The out-of-court disposals are designed for drivers who accept the allegation unconditionally and who pay the (very much reduced) penalty. If you want to challenge it, the only place to do that (unless the ticket office is aware of any general fault or error) is in court.

Bear in mind that whatever issues you have with the offence itself, you must respond to the "request for driver's details" (which accompanies the NIP) within the 28 days allowed. Failure to do so will see you commit  separate, more serious offence which carries a hefty fine, six points and an insurance crippling endorsement code (MS90)

Thanks.
I saw it change.
Regardless of not being able to prove that it changed as I passed under it, it is easily obscured and does not provide adequate warning.
There are 3-speed signs despite it being 3-5 lanes. 2 lorries 1 bus 1 luton van moving across in my lane - rather than tailgating.
I was overtaken by dozens of cars in the 2-3 minutes running up to photographs and these are visible in the photograph sent to me so they should also have been captured and should display the speed sign in the 3 minutes before I arrived.

Sounds like out of court for me = being exposed to risk of hefty fine/costs = will end up paying the £100 FPN.   

drjohn67

BTW I share your scepticism disquiet about the visibility  excuse defence.

BTW why don't you just forget the fake polite striking through? 

mr_stripey

"I saw it change" is irrelevant as you can't prove it and you could well be mistaken in any case

drjohn67

mr_stripey said:

"I saw it change" is irrelevant as you can't prove it and you could well be mistaken in any case

Thanks.
I don't have the evidence to prove it though I was overtaken by numerous cars each of whom would have been 50+ mph and triggered the camera in the seconds running up to my capture. That would provide the information though the process involved in challenging involves risk of £1000+ fine for me. The £100 fine or speed awareness is therefore most likely. 

The sad thing is that I allowed 6 hours of travel time for a 160-mile motorway trip to be with my mother for her cancer referral appointment. Despite the difficult situation, I allowed lots of time and for me to adhere to speed limits though still came unstuck. I will look for a different route to avoid Birmingham as there will be lots of return journeys and despite some people's scepticism I believe my own eyes and would rather avoid the risk of repeat incident. 

Herzlos

It's well worth investing in a dash camera too, should be travelling a similar route in future.

Is the camera definitely from the gantry in question?

drjohn67

Herzlos said:

It's well worth investing in a dash camera too, should be travelling a similar route in future.

Is the camera definitely from the gantry in question?

Yes. There is a camera very high on a pole about 100-200 meters before the gantry which gives a view from the rear and shows my car 20-30m past the gantry, with the speed visible above. That camera is raised on a very tall pole which is necessary to avoid the view being obscured by HGVs. There is then a camera just past the gantry showing a side view.

It would have been fair to have recognised that the same issue with the blocking of the view of the gantry (for lower vantage points) is likely to cause the same risk of obscured view for drivers. The speed camera could have then been placed just a little further down the road to allow drivers safe time to slow down after actually being able to see the speed sign. 

I can afford £100. However, it has motivated me to review my perception of the relationship between the state and its citizens. I previously believed in a 'just' society and happily paid over £2 million in income tax over a 3-decade career. Now? I am transferring a chunk of my savings/private pension to my children 5 years earlier than I had planned. Hence, £1000s in dividend/interest (previously taxed at 40%) will be moved to my 2 children aged 18+ and they will earn the same dividend/interest although it will be taxed at 0%.  

Mildly_Miffed

If a truck in front of you is obscuring the entire width of an upcoming gantry, across all lanes of your carriageway... doesn't that suggest that you're far too close behind the truck?

I would also suggest that it is far more likely that the logged and documented synchronised timing from the control computers is accurate than your anecdotal claim for a gantry that you then go on to state you had very poor visibility of.