Variable speed fine

drjohn67

I was driving earlier this week and as I passed under an overhead gantry I noticed that the speed limit was changing from 50-40mph. 
I promptly changed my speed from down to 40mph.

Despite this, I just received a notice of intended prosecution. 

I was travelling at 50mph. The camera shows an image with 40mph directly ahead of my car. The image indicates that the speed changed 3 minutes prior to the image that they have used. 

I know that this time is not true as I actually saw it change exactly as I was passing under it.

I am told that to seek further evidence requires me to plead not guilty. However, in doing so I risk a fine of 50% of my weekly wage. 

The image shows me in the middle lane _ I was not overtaking simply travelling in a stream of traffic in the middle lane (all of whom I assume may have also activated the camera and received a similar notice). I was at 50mph because I was adhering to the 50mph speed limit indicated right up to the point at which they snapped me!

Any advice?

Ideally, I would like to see images taken in the seconds leading up to the time at which they photographed me - they will show 50mph. 

Hoenir

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

TooManyPoints

Ideally, I would like to see images taken in the seconds leading up to the time at which they photographed me

What makes you think they would have any images of your car before it was photographed?

You can try contacting the ticket office with your concerns. However, unless there is a known fault of which they are already aware, I think it is fairly certain they will not enter into much in the way of a debate. 

Are you sure you have interpreted the photographs correctly? Most variable limits are policed by HADECS 3 cameras. These take an image of the gantry display at the same time as one is taken of your car.

You could also contact National Highways. They maintain logs of the times that variable speed limits were changed. 

I am told that to seek further evidence requires me to plead not guilty.

That is not quite correct. If you decline any out-of-court offers the police may make, you will face prosecution and you will be served with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you before you enter your plea. Once you've seen it you can plead guilty if you wish, but you will still be sentenced in accordance with the normal guidelines. As you say, this will be half a week's net income, but reduced by a third for a guilty plea. You will also pay a surcharge of 40% of the fine and prosecution costs of around £90, and you will see three points imposed. If you plead not guilty but are convicted following a trial, you will lose the discount on the fine and surcharge and will pay increased prosecution costs of about £650.

The police will almost certainly offer you a course for that speed, providing you have not done one in the previous three years.

Nasqueron

Hoenir said:

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

If we take as gospel what OP said that the gantry changed as they passed then slamming brakes on would not be good advice, but that is a big if!

The fact they were caught at 50 would suggest their speedo was likely 52-55 anyway given that speedos never read exactly 50 and the 3 minutes is pretty damning as there would be time enough for them to see the previous one change before getting to that one 

drjohn67

Trying to avoid too lengthy a post (it was already long). Hence, understand that there may be assumptions out there.

The previous sign was 50mph. I passed it 500m before and seemingly 50mph was acceptable there.
I was at 50mph in the middle lane not catching traffic ahead of me. 
My speedo said 50mph - I also had the speed limiter on at 50mph. (It still slows if I brake)

Here is a photo of the view of the gantry as you come around junction 7. When lorries merge from the left they obscure the gantry until you get right up to the gantry.
There were 2 lorries in the photo on my left. The camera snapped me 30m past the gantry ie 1 second at 50mph.
Regardless, of the inadequate signage (for car drivers) the speed did change as I arrived a few metres from it. The sign just 500m earlier on the same motorway had been 50mph. The speed camera captured me within a few seconds of the sign being visible and suddenly changing to a lower speed. 

I will ask them to review any speeding vehicles in the minutes/seconds leading up to my capture - they will show 50mph - I fear that it will only be if they can be bothered doing so.  



 

drjohn67

Hoenir said:

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

As the image shows the gantry is obscured for car drivers until right up to it. 
I was captured 30m past the gantry ie 1.3secs at 50mph. (The photo from the camera shows me just 1 lighting post past the gantry - distance is measurable on maps).

Car_54

Nasqueron said:

Hoenir said:

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

If we take as gospel what OP said that the gantry changed as they passed then slamming brakes on would not be good advice, but that is a big if!

The fact they were caught at 50 would suggest their speedo was likely 52-55 anyway given that speedos never read exactly 50 and the 3 minutes is pretty damning as there would be time enough for them to see the previous one change before getting to that one 

Maybe I've misunderstood, but what is the relevance of the previous gantry?

drjohn67

TooManyPoints said:

I am told that to seek further evidence requires me to plead not guilty.

That is not quite correct. If you decline any out-of-court offers the police may make....

I am confident that any cars captured at junction 7 (the one I passed) in the 3 minutes prior to me being photographed at junction 8 will show a 50mph limit at junction 7. That was why I was at 50mph.
I assume that they won't bother checking.


What out-of-court offers? Fixed notice / speed awareness course? 

What I would like is for them to check camera evidence immediately before the time that I was captured. It will show 50mph despite the claim that it had changed 3m44sec earlier.


1. The sign is readily obscured by HGV and the capture is seconds after the gantry being visible.
2. The sign changed yet the data provided said that it changed 3m44s earlier which I know is incorrect.


Large organisations rely on systems which are lacking. Post Office, NHS cancer screening recall etc.

The tax office fined me for not completing self-assessment although suddenly it was all cancelled when I provided the screenshot of my online account which showed that self-assessment was not due. The system had generated 2 profiles with the same unique reference / NI number. 

drjohn67

Car_54 said:

Nasqueron said:

Hoenir said:

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

If we take as gospel what OP said that the gantry changed as they passed then slamming brakes on would not be good advice, but that is a big if!

The fact they were caught at 50 would suggest their speedo was likely 52-55 anyway given that speedos never read exactly 50 and the 3 minutes is pretty damning as there would be time enough for them to see the previous one change before getting to that one 

Maybe I've misunderstood, but what is the relevance of the previous gantry?

It was suggested that the previous gantry would have displayed the 40mph limit.

It did not. It was 500m (or less than 30 seconds at 50mph) before I was photographed at the next gantry where the speed limit suddenly changed to 40mph. 

As the image shows the speed limit on the gantry that I was captured is readily obscured by merging HGVs / curve of the road and only comes into view for car drivers at the last moment. 

In my case there were 2 HGVs merging and these are visible in the photograph evidence provided by the Police.

1. The system record the time of changing of the speed limit was inaccurate. I saw it and am certain.
2. The camera is positioned at location where car drivers are very easily denied an adequate view of the signage until they are being photographed. 

Nasqueron

Car_54 said:

Nasqueron said:

Hoenir said:

Whatever the timing. You saw the gantry change speed limit before reaching it and continued to travel at the same speed. Camera's don't take pictures vertically. You'll already have been past the gantry by some distance when caught. 

If we take as gospel what OP said that the gantry changed as they passed then slamming brakes on would not be good advice, but that is a big if!

The fact they were caught at 50 would suggest their speedo was likely 52-55 anyway given that speedos never read exactly 50 and the 3 minutes is pretty damning as there would be time enough for them to see the previous one change before getting to that one 

Maybe I've misunderstood, but what is the relevance of the previous gantry?

Basically OP is driving down the road, based on the information in the post, the speed limit changed to 40mph as they passed it then they immediately got tagged. What I am saying is, assuming no camera fault etc, they would have passed a previous gantry (or other display) saying it was 40 if the limit was changed to 40mph 3:44 before per the notice - so a bit under 3 miles before. Speed cameras obviously aren't set so that they can be changed instantly and immediately start issuing tickets.

I'm no expert in determining distances and have no knowledge of motorway gantry heights etc but I am not sure also how the gantry in question could be obscured by 2 lorries on a 4-5 lane road unless you were really close to the lorry - even in the photo above you can see the left and right displays 

victor2

If you were travelling at an indicated 50, you almost certainly will have actually been doing less, as car speedos can only read within the actual speed plus 10%. They cannot read less than your actual speed, unless they've had different size wheels and tyres fitted after manufacture. So if the camera says you were travelling at 50mph, you must have been travelling at an indicated speed of 50 to 55.

Another speeding discussion on here included a post by somebody involved with setting up speed cameras, who indicated that they don't start taking pictures immediately after they change. I think you will struggle to prove it changed within a second of catching you, especially if they have information saying it had been at 40 for well over 3 minutes. I don't suppose you have dashcam footage of your journey? Finding someone else caught by the same camera just before you could pretty much be an impossible task, they could just say nobody was caught in that timeframe, but in theory it would prove or disprove your claim.