ScottishPower - ACI Letter

ratherbesimracing

I really am going to try and keep this brief 

In 2018 we moved in to a property, 2bed apartment (converted barn) with storage heating and in turn economy7.       Our bills were high,   the bill itself considers 19.3kwh to be "high" usage our bill said we were using 83kwh !.   So i totalled every electrical appliance bar mobile phone chargers and came out to 13.12kwh.   

A fault was logged,  an engineer visited,  confirmed a fault with the analogue meter"s" but said hes not allowed to switch to digital and another engineer would visit.     

I go back to ScottishPower and its confirmed faulty meter or should i say "meters" (x2 electric meters day&night) - i'm told to take meter reads constantly for 2 months (which i did) as these would be used to reproduce and accurate bill\delta based on normalising the reads.   

A few month later the engineer comes out again.    

What ScottishPower then did,  was total usage in total,   total payments and then produce a full bill based on what they think is "still" outstanding.   £1200.   No recalculation back 15 months.

They have not corrected the fault,  they have not recalculated the bill based on a faulty meter for 15months - and i'm not even going to get started on the number of failed appointments for engineers and time off work.    

We left the property in 2019.   

I received a letter yesterday from ACI saying i owe £1200.   

A few points from myside

• I informed SP of our intention to leave the property 3 months beforehand - they had plenty of time to resolve the issue
• I persistently chased this issue with them to resolve
• I have confirmation in a Resolver complaint that the dedicated handler said that they had been billing at night rate and day rate and day rate at night rate.   
• I have confirmation in resolver that the meter reads would need to be amended back to 2011 which needs a specialist team because the issues went back to the point the property became converted.

ScottishPower in my eyes have not produced and "accurate" bill.   I am not denying that something is owed - but i given we have paid over £1500 for that 15month period its entirely probable if they recalculate they might even owe me.   

Now.   ACI

If i reply to ACI saying the "prove it" they don't care the circumstances only they determine an outstanding balance.   

But it is in dispute and is still in dispute,  but ScottishPower wont speak to me because its been sold on. 

Any idea where i go from here ?.   

Scot_39

Debt advisory service - or citizens advice before this potentially ends in court.

And as there are signs of potential misunderstandings on energy use and potential costs, get them to check over bills etc


1) 20kWh  vs 80kWh

Firstly 20kWh per day is not an excessive amount - or for many even a realistic amount - of energy when comes to total including heating.
I am way below it - on average - but exceed it on coldest days - when 35-40kWh range occurs - often only for a day as turn heaters up - but its a struggle to keep use that low - double and triple layering etc for low room temps. My neighbours are above.
However 80kWh is excessive for a normal small modern property lMO

Gas users are estimated at median TDCV to use 11500 kWh pa -  c30kWh per day - over and above c8kWh for other electrics - so nearly c40kWh total ave per day. But the 30kWh likely heavily biased to winter - say 5-10 summer for washing maybe cooking etc and 50-55kWh inc space heating in winter  (median tdcv cap - 2-3 in a 2-3 bed) 
A small gas boiler could burn 20kWh in an hour or two starting up from cold in even a small home ( small combi boiler peak ratings often exceed 20kW - many approach 30kW for HW demand - normally lower for radiator circuits only).
If your property - barn conversion-  was on the larger side, high ceilings, larger windows etc  or poorly insulated or both - it could easily be far higher than average use.
If purchased -  what was the home efficiency rating and the energy reports estimated energy requirement if bought in 2018?  But given only their c15m a year guess renting ?

£100 per month even at pre crisis pricing really isn't excessive for electric heating - I can remember paying DD of that sort of level precrisis.  Primarily simply because it's more expensive per kWh.

If your not used to it - the 3x average price (remember its a peak penalty and off peak savings mix)  vs  gas heating is quite shocking. 

(The reasoning for ASHP and when well matched - high COPS - is to bring running costs more in line with gas)

But with old tech you either cut energy use - dramatically if and where can - mainly via room temps in winter and hot water volume in summer/winter if renter or that and new insulation if owning - or you pay more - a lot more - in £s for same energy use. 

2) Power vs energy  - And potential Energy Use

When you totalled  devices - I am guessing you may have totalled their power ratings - so 13kW power - not 13 kWh energy.
Energy = power x time  - billed for simplicity in kWh - 1kW power device run for 1 hr = 1 energy unit as billed.

If they were all to run for 6 hrs =  6×13.x = c 80kWh.

HW can be a big year round demand
My small hw tank uses 1 3kW immersion heater - it uses around 2-2.5 kWh summer - on less than 1 hr -  over 3kWh in winter -on over hour (over 20m 3x per day) -  and doesn't even feed my shower - well on light use days.  Some of that is (maybe  1-1.5kWh) is tank and pipework losses.
Empty or near empty the tank - bath or have to double wash the car because it#s been a while etc -  gets nearer the 7kWh to heat c100l from cold.
The electric shower another 1kWh plus  (every 10 min = 1.5kWh for a 9kW rated shower)

I have 3 NSH - 1 c3.6kW input, 2xc1.7 kW input in halls - total input power c7kW. (House also has 2 wall panel heaters in bedrooms (1.5kW ? - never use) and fan heaters in kitchen / bathroom (1kW ?) - another 5kW+ if used).

In theory the 3 NSH alone on E7 could take 7kW for 7 hrs  = 7x 7 = 49kWh of energy.
On my E10 they could take upto 7 kWx10 hrs = 70kWh over my 3 split charge windows.

I run a coldish house - 14 except lr 16 -  but 1 of 2 smaller nsh will still charge for around 5 hrs a day over 3 off peak time slots on half charge input setting - to keep even temps up to my low 14C in halls, kitchen, bathroom and 2 bedrooms in a cold snap. 

Each of your nsh on economy 7 could have similarly charged for anything upto the full 7 hrs. 

Larger models charge ratings are typically over 3kW range too.   Some modern even have day rate boost heaters (think fan heater - around 1kw on a Quantum 150 iirc) or  top up brick charging elements - to consume even more energy daily at peak rates if selected / operating.

I assume you were told to monitor consumption after old meters were exchanged for new analogue not digital.  Otherwise what was the exercise going to prove ?
The new measurements would need I guess to be fitted into a seasonally adjusted curve by SP or compared with previous year at similar time.
[Meters don't always have constant calibration errors - but a domestic meter is only allowed a few % error total from high to low - across modern single phase - 100A / 23 kVA range - before a test will say it's at fault.] 
Any idea how far out they were - some older anologue meters when tested had been significantly slowing down.
One poster reported one disc model that even stopped few hours per day.

3) Swapped Rates

You say Peak and off peak rates swapped.  But not your actual mix.

The breakeven point most aim for on E7 is c 40% plus of total ave over year of off peak use to save vs single rate.

Ofgem operate on the presumption of 42% at night when pricing E7 (well profile class 2 default tariff level and a less well published MR cap).  

At just a little more - at exactly 50% your bills would have - obviously - been correct in £ either way..

Many do struggle to achieve that 40% - but with NSH fitted and used as main heating - its generally not too much of a problem to make e7 pay.

At below 50% off peak you would have been saving (paying more than half your use at lower off peak rate when should have been peak rate ).

Do you know roughly what your split was and tariff rates - its easy to work out  if and how much it was saving or costing you if have the bills - assuming bills based on readings not estimates - even if a little wonky.

That needs fixing - but concentrate on your own period.
Your opening and closing reads - even better if have intermediate bills based on actual readings and price variation points - but prices more stable pre crisis than now.
Forget pre moving in - the 2011 date isnt your problem - and should have had no impact on your bill errors.

3)  Time Scales

It is unacceptable that SP haven't produced a resolution. But perhaps they think they have.
Corrected bills can at least in past in my poa days on mums account - be often a simple bill covering a long disputed period (2.5 years - with a history of 4 6m bills with incorrect estimates - despite supplying meter readings).
I didn't like the use of one rate - so got them to produce a much longer bill - using past readings to better estimate usage at price change points - essentially more like 5 bills in one.

In reality you should have escalated to formal complaint and then Energy Ombudsman 8 weeks later.
Perhaps using Resolver ? - is that just a gateway to help contact CS complaints team as some posts here suggest - or does it go further - actual aid.  If aid did they mention - or did you use Energy Ombudsman at any stage ?

You had a bill for £1200 over and above what you had paid (£1500).

That would put final average at £180 pm over 15m  Its large, but not unbelievably so. 

How many kWh did you actually use in the 15 months as metered.

How many are SP actually billing you for in the £1200 excess bill.

4) Debt - not my area

Bill needed challenging and resolving in 2019 - or when SP first issued it - not x years later.
You have been trying - but yet they have still "old debt" and no payment for it I guess

The normal statute on domestic  debt is iirc  6 years in Eng -  longer for some in Scotland (7?).
This may therefore be a "last chance" claim if really sitting since 2019.  

But it's not clear when your £1200 demand was issued - or when if re- issued by SP as paret of complaints process - and when your last exchanges with normal complaints team at SP took place.
Did they ever inform you they had rejected or closed the complaint ?
They may have done so when and if reissued any corrected - re-estimated readings if meter errors significantly out - or rate swap correction - bill.

It is very strange to sell debt as an initial step.

If the ACI letter is just a opening stage of claim - a prove it letter might work.  

But honestly no idea how often these work to halt the process.

If however as happened to another poster in last few weeks - where they said first real notice was a letter of pending CC action - an official document with court reference number etc -  that's another kettle of fish. It's essentially too late for a prove it/

You would need to be pretty confident those resolver notes etc do reflect errors not then corrected in any revised basis of the £1200 bill-or current claim - if debt agency were to procede to attempt to prove it - or worse if ends up in CC mediation or court itself.

Given the initial occupancy dates - if not the complaints period - suspect something in the SP system/procedures viewed it as a long term debt with no payment.  The debt team may not be the complaints team - they were on a different number when I had problems with SP.

So my advice as above would be to urgently seek help based on the evidence you have from an impartial energy debt advice charity  (not paid service) - or general debt charity like say Stepchange who also deal with energy and court etc if ever ges there (who have a thread on the debt free wannabe forum board here)  or Citizens advice - on phone or face to face.

Should help you understand the combined state of bills and advice on best way to handle the debt letter.

ratherbesimracing

Wow Scott,  Thankyou - i have gone through every point,  i have not come back on every point but i've picked out key parts - my response is equally not short,   i have saved your response for future reference.  

But i hope this builds a further picture of where i'm at

1)      20kWh  vs 80kWh & 2) Power vs energy  - And potential Energy Use

Just to clarify

This was an electric only property,  no Gas – the Shower was a power shower. 

Ok,   So at the time on one of the SP bills it actually stated (a graphic image) 6.8kwh for Low and 19.3kwh for high with a med in the middle – obviously ours on the graphic next to this is at 83kwh. 

Then I used the typical examples also provided by SP

Tumble Dryer                     1hour cycle          1.5kwh
Washing Machine            one wash             0.7kwh
Dishwasher                        one wash             1.25kwh               (we didn’t have one)
Mobile Phones                  12 hours              0.06kwh
Laptop                                  2 hours                 0.09kwh
Console                                2 hours                 0.28kwh

So all of the above is quoted at the “per day” on the SP bill for examples

So what I then did is said,  right whats the max I could use for a 24hour period. 

Tumble Dryer @ 1.5kwh running for 24 hours                     36.00kwh
Mobile Phones x2 @ 0.06kWh x2 = 0.12kwh 24 hours      2.88kwh
Washing Machine x1 Wash @ 0.7kwh * 24 would be 16.8
(figures based on 40 degree – we wash at 30 degrees)    16.80kwh
Dishwasher x1 load @ 1.25kwh * 12
(figures based on a 2 hour cycle)                                               15.00kwh

TOTAL   70.68kwh

Its worth noting that our working pattern here is 730-6pm,  so we are gone from 630-7 and were not back until the same time.   So 5 days a week there was a 3 hour usage period – nothing was left on during the day,  and of course we were there at the weekends

 

I’m not disputing what you’ve said – I’m just trying to provide further context of where I got to which formed part of the complaint.

 

3)      Swapped Rates

On the day we moved in in 2016 (16th Feb > 16th Mar 2018)

Meter1(669)                      98816    >             99033                    =             217kwh

Meter2(650)                      42168    >             42168                    =             0kwh

 

16Mar > 31May

Now,  bear in mind here it looks like the meters have swapped over.

Meter1 (now650)             10421                                    2915kwh

Meter2 (now669)             99789                                    245kwh

This was the first point of contact and a complaint and dispute raised.  – New Bill issued

Meter1(back to 669)       99033(custread)               756kwh

Meter2(back to 650)       42168                                    0kwh

Total Electricity used at [Day Rate] 973kwh x 18.664p

 

 

On to the bills,  rather than the kwh used.

The first bill issued  March 8th 2018

£499.36 in debit,   for day at 219kwh and night at 4803kwh – confirmed wrong – new bill issued

March 28th 2018

£150 in debit,  for 0kwh day usage and 0kwh night usage – confirmed wrong – zero usage

April 30th 2018

£150 in debit, for 4078kwh night usage and 268kwh day usage – confirmed impossible for billing period (16Feb to 16Mar) – remember this is the 30th April bill

3rd July 2018

£460 in debit, doe 269 day and 4089night for the period 17mar to 03july. – remember my payment plan is £150pm at this stage – projected plan £1039 for the year.

Next bill while all this was trying to be sorted out came in October

25th October 2018

£216, debit,  last bill £460 – you’ve paid £510,  new charges £266 for the period 04\07 to 23\10.

Actual Reads – night 66463 day 879

New projected tariff £1452 per year, 

01 Jan 2019

New costs £669,  new projection £1847

Actual reads 2026 day and 70297 for night.  

 

So based on the above for the quarter it recons we are at an average of

Day        1147                       divide by 90 for the quarter         12.74kwh per day

Night     3834                       divide by 90 for the quarter         42.60kwh per day

Total                                                                                                      55.34kwh per day

 

So based on the bills,  if I take the opening read and the closing read on the day we left I get the following

Opening               Feb16th 2018                                     Closing Jun15th 2019                     

Meter 669          

Low                        98816                                                    76120
Normal                 62387                                                    39866

Meter 650          

Low                        42168                                                    10423
Normal                 10421                                                    42172                                                   

Based on a 99k max clock I make it the following

Meter 669          

Low                        77303
Normal                 77478

Meter 650          

Low                        68254
Normal                 31751

I mean there is more information but I can only give so much at this stage.  

 

4)      Debt

The £1212 outstanding was based on the bill issued May31st.   15 days before we leave the property – and 3 months after I was told to take averages for 2019 months to be recalculated on a new bill.  I was already under a case handler and resolver at this stage.  

Last bill issued £1319
Last payment £150
Cancelled Charges £2432
New Costs £2474
Amount to pay £1212 in debit

 

So this brings us to what our actual usage is for the period 2 weeks before and after the meter was swapped.

During the testing phase of meter reads in the 3 weeks prior to the engineer visit we apparently used the following :-

3 week total =

Night     (low)                                     829        

Day        (normal)                              277        

Engineer visits and confirms faulty meter April 24\25th.   Meter reads commence on April 27th for the next 3 weeks

3 week total =

Night     (low)                                     52

Day        (normal)                              165

 

But no recalculation over the prior billing period – despite a resolver team email saying this is what would happen

The debt was not sold as an initial step.   There were sometimes months between responses.   I would wait,  receive a notification on resolver – update the notes.   It went back to SP and there was no action.  

At one point the debt was sold (2022) – (yes I was still working on this in 2022) to [Pastdue] while this action was ongoing.   A letter back to Pastdue and the issue returned promptly to SP

There are other issues

On September 30th I was cc’d into an email to another SP customer releasing all that customers contact details, payment status, account numbers and in turn I believe my email was reversed to the other person. 

New complaint opened and no response.  

 

 

 

I think you need to understand my mental state at that stage – I’m not one for just walking away from a debt as the above hopefully shows – but this took its toll,  I nearly committed suicide over this.   My marriage had broken down which is why I moved in in the first place.    I was not in a good place.  

But trying to talk to anybody in SP that would actually take ownership, sit down, and work through the issue is impossible.   Waiting times on the phone of 45mins+,  then passed to another team, overseas call centre and start again. 

You are right,  I should get legal help – I just don’t know if I have it in me to go through it !. 

Scot_39

Sorry if came across as unsympathetic - but clearly this and obviously the other things going on in parallel took an awful toll.

The advisors at places like citizens advice - will be more than sympathetic to your mental and even physical toll - such life changes - and stresses of dealing with suppliers can cause.  They will not only have helped you - but they would have helped you dealing direct with the energy companies on your behalf - and asking them to take all circumstances into account - and even dare I say it - maybe seeking and getting a more sympathetic financial outcome / response from said suppliers - as a direct result.

Historic Pricing

Energy - especially all electric - can be much more expensive than you might have expected - if used to gas.  

Even E7 off peak rates are normally around double gas unit rates from many suppliers - and then you have the premium on the other 17 hours a day - so average prices paid more like treble - depending on peak off peak split.

Back in 2019 - pre crisis - iirc the first Ofgem caps - for duel fuel - when introduced - was around £100+ per month level - it even fell nearer £90 by 2022 - before steeply rising - but again - impotant to realise - these were dual fual prcing caps - on presumption cheaper gas - was doing the heavy lifting - room heating, hot water etc. - for about 80% (12,000kWh gas vs 2900kWh electric - 12000 / 14900 kWh = 80% of annual energy use)

And it's important to remember the initial £150 DD - is only based on a guesstimate of your likely use. So its perfectly normal for your supplier to take new readings into account - and recalculate more accurate total annual costs - and so new DD.

Your consumption example lists

Despite the fact you told us the flat used NSH as heat source and had no gas.

Yet there is no allowance for 

heating

hot water 

or 

cooking.  

There are properties where hot water / heating aren't included in your direct utility billing.  You can rent privately with HW and heating included - but you havent made that clear - if that was the case.

You can even rent / buy - and have communal heating - more common in large blocks of flats than I guess a rural barn conversion though - and pay a thrid party supplier instead - as well as your normal utility supplier bills.

So unless your rent - or paid a second company - to cover the costs of HW and heating - I am lost to why you would  have no figures for them.  Even with a say coal or log burner - it's unlikely to provide all the heat.

And at £150 inital annualised DD estimate - i really believe SP was certainly including for them.

Where gas would normally supply the energy for such things - and again that's why I provided the now 11500 kWh pa figure Ofgem use for cap as median use - back in 2018/19 - that was a higher 12000 kWh. 

Edit Sat AM

So taking your first table - the second table you should forget

Then I used the typical examples also provided by SP

Tumble Dryer                     1hour cycle          1.5kwh
Washing Machine            one wash             0.7kwh
Dishwasher                        one wash             1.25kwh               (we didn’t have one)
Mobile Phones                  12 hours              0.06kwh
Laptop                                  2 hours                 0.09kwh
Console                                2 hours                 0.28kwh

I would have expected lines like

        Hot Water Tank Immersion    2 hours                          2.5x3kW =7.5kWh

or

        Hot Water Tank Immersion    1,5 hours                        1.5x3kW =4.5kWh

        Electric Het Shower                2x10 min                        2x10min= 0.33 hr x9kW = 3 kWh

        NSH - Large                          2 hours mild winter day 2x 3.5 = 7kWh

                                                      or 5 hrs cold winter        5x 3.5 = 17.5 kwh

        NSH - Medium 1                   2 hours mild                   2x 2 = 4kWh

                                                      5 hours cold                   5x 2 = 10 kwh

        NSH - Medium 2                   2 hours mild                   2x 2 = 4kWh

                                                      5 hours cold                   5x 2 = 10 kwh

Even low power devices - old style lighting - if a lot of it - 

So take home using lots of halogen spots (modern homes can have dozens in open plan kitchen / diner / lounges - taking 20-50W each). My brother had around 20 in kitchen diner (ceiling, cabinet for worktops etc) alone in a modest 3 bed semi - total power just over 500W - and were on for upto 2-3 hrs every morning - and 8-9 hrs every evening (kids home to going to bed) - another 5+ kWh. LED cut that down to sub 100W - maybe 50-60 iirc - so 0.5 kWh.

My parents had 2 multi globe light fittings - in LR and sitting room - both in use - most evenings - old filament - using 660W - Halogens took that to c450W - LEDs - c80W with early less efficient LEDs when swapped over.

And although you didnt have a dishwasher - you did use hot water to wash dishes (and many say hand washing actually takes more energy - not less) - and so that lump goes into the immersion heater (again assuming it wasn't part of rent or other supply payment )

Without major costs and "low but long" - in your table - easier to see why you would be dismayed by such a high consumption - and taken to doing pretty abnormal calcs - like carrying out the second set of calulations - the what if my appliances used "cycle" powers continuously - to get to the 70.3 kWh figure in the second set.  

You wouldn't I am afraid have gotten very far - if used tables such as those - as a basis for complaint - again unless those very high HW and heating costs were covered elsewhere.

So that is why I spent considerable time talking about heating - hot water - power and energy consumption - NSH and hot water immersion.

Its late - to work through your bill figures - that needs a little more brain power - and explaination.

Again perhaps best done face to face or on phone with  an advisor - who can tease out the data - and set it out in a clear timeline - of the sort would be needed to back any future challange to SP - or worst case to defend claim for oustanding debt.

I am still very confused.  

Two sets of numbers - low and normal - on two meters etc - why two meters ?

In a modern install - seems strange.

Are you sure both meters were even for your section of the split property ?  

Were they physically in your section - or in a communal shared meter cabinet in shared hallway or external etc ?

I did have 2 meters - one RTS for heating and hot water - one normal for rest - but now only 1 - when forced off RTS years ago.

You said you had faulty meters - and they were changed - assuming on the late April visist - so would expect there at some point to be a billing split around the fitting of new.

so last reading on any previous bill (or move in in the limit) --> to old meter final reading

- given a faulty meter - this would then perhaps be subject to some post testing corrective manipulation by SP 

I note thet they recalculated slightly higher in fact in May 2019.

(But I may have been misled by your issues with billing in 2018 - so at one stage was assuming the Apr dates were 2018 - but then you talk of expecting recalcs for total periond - so then implying Apr 2019 - just before you moved out instead )

- and a period for new meter opening reading (often but not always zero) --> 1st bill after / in limit moving out reading

Meter 3 week data

I can see you have sample readings from 3 weeks either side of end of an Apr event - and so assuming this before / after - as in that case.

So how far out of calibration - were the meters - as taking the data at face value - no other changes - you might be concluding that explained the full 829 vs 52 and 277 vs 165

If you didn't pay for heating otherwise - via rent of third party - when for instance - did you switch your NSH's off - or if modern room temperature governed devices - did they switch themselves off.

As that shift of c 260 kWh per week ((829-52)= 777/3) - c35 kWh per day - could easily be accounted for by running even just a couple of NSH to heat even a property - at a medium let alone high setting - before - and not after.

Heating costs in particular - do not stay constant - and by end of Apr most years - my main heating is off.

Even with better meter readings - unless you know exactly else was going on behind the figures - raw data isn't always enough.

As I say thats why you ideally need 2 sources of meaurement - (new meter in series - as have seen done in industrial metering - or a data logger using current clamps in meter cabinet) at the same time - measuring the same devices at same time.  It sounds like you might have had something in place for a couple of weeks to log ?

Weather Impact

(*) Just also occured to me - your occupancy start period straddled Feb 2018 into Mar 2018 - that was iirc beast from east period - and the snow storm (from Emma clashing with it in SW and Wales etc) to follow. 

Thats etched in my brain - as that when my pipes froze in loft, I'd been here in current home a decade by then - windy and daytime highs were sub zero here in EM.

My daily peak hit around 55-60 kWh for a couple of days - 50% higher than my normal winter highs.

Including abnormally using additional panel heater in one of bedrooms and oil filled radiator in LR / kitchen on / off (another 3.5 kW max) to boost over and above NSH.  NSH - old more than new - have low average output powers (maybe 2-2.5kW total - my largest is around c1kW output max) - which just weren't keeping home hot enough in that extreme.