Probate property with cars left. who will own them?

Ditzy_Mitzy

What sort of cars are they?

It might make sense to carry out some research and present evidence, in the form of small ads, to the executor to bolster any representations you are making as to their worth.  There are dealers who will buy classic cars, if applicable, and arrange for their removal.  

You probably won't know, but is the executor also the beneficiary?  If he isn't named as the inheritor of the cars specifically then they aren't 'his' either, at least not in any real sense.  It might also be worth having a conversation with the other executor - assuming the two are joint beneficiaries - about the difficult party's failure to act.  An executor cannot simply bury his head in the sand in an attempt to avoid disposal of property that has sentimental value.  

doodling

Hi,

raptor2004 said:

doodling said:

Hi,

What you want is something in the contract which states that any vehicles remaining on the property at completion will become yours.

If you don't have such a clause then if they are still there then you will be stuck with looking after them until they are collected (which might be weeks).  At least if they become yours then you can do whatever you want with them.

Requiring removal is fine but it doesn't actually help you if they haven't gone - are you going to turn round the removals truck if they are still there and ask for your money back?, or go to the trouble of trying to force removal legally after you have moved in?  It is easier to be in a position where you can call the local scrappie and get them to pick them up if they are still there.

Herzlos said:

Your options are basically:

Refuse to transfer the money until the cars are gone. That may encourage them to sort something out but may leave you in limbo if you're part of a chain.

Insist that everything on the property becomes yours as soon as you take ownership. Then apply for a new V5 and sell them for scrap.

Get them to agree to pay £10 per day per car for storage between completion and removal. This one is probably fairest but you've got almost no chance of getting any money from them.

ThisIsWeird said:

Raptor, is this purchase hanging in the balance in any way? Are you concerned about delays, and how it could scupper anything? Are you worried that the bolshie bro could have a tantrum and wreck the sale?

If not, then the advice above is good - make it a condition, and sit back and wait; the ball is in their court. 

But, if you just want the purchase to complete asap, then I would personally be ok about ignoring these chattels until completion, and then giving the owners a fair and reasonable - but set - timescale to remove them. I wouldn't try and get into the complexities of storage costs - just unnecessary. What if they say, 'ok', but then you have to chase them after 6 months when they haven't paid a penny?!

After completion, the facts will be that these cars - which you do not own - will be on your property. After being decent enough to give them a fixed date to remove them, you do so instead, and leave them anywhere else.

I don't think it is as easy as putting in a condition with my solicitors saying if any 'chattels' are left in the property, i.e. the cars, post completion then they automatically become mine? It is a probate, and the cars' V5 are in the deceased persons name. I can simply apply for a new V5.....?

Yes you can.  The V5 is nothing to do with ownership and changing it to your name can be done without too much trouble.

Obviously I simplified when suggesting a clause that everything would become yours on the assumption that a solicitor would draft anything required.  In reality, any contract modification would consist of a clause passing ownership to you and a warranty by the seller confirming that they own anything that would pass to you.  (The warranty is important as it means you can claim off the seller if a distant relative of the deceased appears claiming that the valuable classic cars in the garage were theirs and wants £200k in compensation).

The fact that it is a probate property makes everything easier - the executor (who you are presumably dealing with) owns (on trust!) everything that belonged to the deceased and has the right to make whatever deal they want with you (they are answerable to the beneficiaries but unless you are colluding is some kind of fraud that isn't your problem).

To be honest, my suggestion was partially to get the seller to make a decision.  A refusal to agree to a request for such a clause looks like an admission that they are going to leave stuff at the property and then mess you about after the sale.

FreeBear

Ditzy_Mitzy said: What sort of cars are they?

A very pertinent question.  A 20 year old Nissan Micra will perhaps, be worth £50 as scrap. A 1960s TR3, several thousand (depending on condition).

raptor2004

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

What sort of cars are they?

It might make sense to carry out some research and present evidence, in the form of small ads, to the executor to bolster any representations you are making as to their worth.  There are dealers who will buy classic cars, if applicable, and arrange for their removal.  

You probably won't know, but is the executor also the beneficiary?  If he isn't named as the inheritor of the cars specifically then they aren't 'his' either, at least not in any real sense.  It might also be worth having a conversation with the other executor - assuming the two are joint beneficiaries - about the difficult party's failure to act.  An executor cannot simply bury his head in the sand in an attempt to avoid disposal of property that has sentimental value.  

It is only an old 1999 BMW 318i. Has very low mileage though but still, not a car that is worth much. 
The other car is a 2009 Ford Transit Connect with around 80k miles. Again isn't worth much.

So there are 2 brothers who are the beneficiaries. One is easy going but the other is a nightmare. I don't know whether the cars were specifically listed to be inherited to one of the brothers. It is doubtful as the troublesome brother would have removed it and sold them by now. They still don't have any MOT or tax.

raptor2004

doodling said:

Hi,

raptor2004 said:

doodling said:

Hi,

What you want is something in the contract which states that any vehicles remaining on the property at completion will become yours.

If you don't have such a clause then if they are still there then you will be stuck with looking after them until they are collected (which might be weeks).  At least if they become yours then you can do whatever you want with them.

Requiring removal is fine but it doesn't actually help you if they haven't gone - are you going to turn round the removals truck if they are still there and ask for your money back?, or go to the trouble of trying to force removal legally after you have moved in?  It is easier to be in a position where you can call the local scrappie and get them to pick them up if they are still there.

Herzlos said:

Your options are basically:

Refuse to transfer the money until the cars are gone. That may encourage them to sort something out but may leave you in limbo if you're part of a chain.

Insist that everything on the property becomes yours as soon as you take ownership. Then apply for a new V5 and sell them for scrap.

Get them to agree to pay £10 per day per car for storage between completion and removal. This one is probably fairest but you've got almost no chance of getting any money from them.

ThisIsWeird said:

Raptor, is this purchase hanging in the balance in any way? Are you concerned about delays, and how it could scupper anything? Are you worried that the bolshie bro could have a tantrum and wreck the sale?

If not, then the advice above is good - make it a condition, and sit back and wait; the ball is in their court. 

But, if you just want the purchase to complete asap, then I would personally be ok about ignoring these chattels until completion, and then giving the owners a fair and reasonable - but set - timescale to remove them. I wouldn't try and get into the complexities of storage costs - just unnecessary. What if they say, 'ok', but then you have to chase them after 6 months when they haven't paid a penny?!

After completion, the facts will be that these cars - which you do not own - will be on your property. After being decent enough to give them a fixed date to remove them, you do so instead, and leave them anywhere else.

I don't think it is as easy as putting in a condition with my solicitors saying if any 'chattels' are left in the property, i.e. the cars, post completion then they automatically become mine? It is a probate, and the cars' V5 are in the deceased persons name. I can simply apply for a new V5.....?

Yes you can.  The V5 is nothing to do with ownership and changing it to your name can be done without too much trouble.

Obviously I simplified when suggesting a clause that everything would become yours on the assumption that a solicitor would draft anything required.  In reality, any contract modification would consist of a clause passing ownership to you and a warranty by the seller confirming that they own anything that would pass to you.  (The warranty is important as it means you can claim off the seller if a distant relative of the deceased appears claiming that the valuable classic cars in the garage were theirs and wants £200k in compensation).

The fact that it is a probate property makes everything easier - the executor (who you are presumably dealing with) owns (on trust!) everything that belonged to the deceased and has the right to make whatever deal they want with you (they are answerable to the beneficiaries but unless you are colluding is some kind of fraud that isn't your problem).

To be honest, my suggestion was partially to get the seller to make a decision.  A refusal to agree to a request for such a clause looks like an admission that they are going to leave stuff at the property and then mess you about after the sale.

My solicitor has categorically said that they will not get involved with the cars. Can I instruct them to put in a clause something along the lines of, "remove all items including the cars before completion. If the cars are not collected by xxx date they then become in my possession".?

pumas

You can download a copy of the will for £1.50, if not too recent.
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Herzlos

raptor2004 said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

What sort of cars are they?

It might make sense to carry out some research and present evidence, in the form of small ads, to the executor to bolster any representations you are making as to their worth.  There are dealers who will buy classic cars, if applicable, and arrange for their removal.  

You probably won't know, but is the executor also the beneficiary?  If he isn't named as the inheritor of the cars specifically then they aren't 'his' either, at least not in any real sense.  It might also be worth having a conversation with the other executor - assuming the two are joint beneficiaries - about the difficult party's failure to act.  An executor cannot simply bury his head in the sand in an attempt to avoid disposal of property that has sentimental value.  

It is only an old 1999 BMW 318i. Has very low mileage though but still, not a car that is worth much. 
The other car is a 2009 Ford Transit Connect with around 80k miles. Again isn't worth much.

So there are 2 brothers who are the beneficiaries. One is easy going but the other is a nightmare. I don't know whether the cars were specifically listed to be inherited to one of the brothers. It is doubtful as the troublesome brother would have removed it and sold them by now. They still don't have any MOT or tax.

If you don't have the keys, and they've been unused for a while, the value could be even lower than expected.

It may be that part of the reluctance is that no-one knows where the keys are so hoping someone else will figure it out. You may be lucky and find them in the house if it hasn't been cleared as requested though, but otherwise you'd need to claim the V5 and then force entry to at least roll them to somewhere a scrap truck can collect them from. You may end up getting nothing for them by the time collection is factored in.

ThisIsWeird

raptor2004 said:

My solicitor has categorically said that they will not get involved with the cars. Can I instruct them to put in a clause something along the lines of, "remove all items including the cars before completion. If the cars are not collected by xxx date they then become in my possession".?

If you read the link I put in my last post, it appears to be the case that if a property is sold 'vacant possession', then any chattels not included in the TA10 effectively remains the vendor's problem. 

By 'problem', I meant that if they do not remove them after completion pdq, the new owner can dispose of them, and - if this costs money to do so (skip, for example) - then can sue the vendor, and will almost certainly win. Or, if the vendor pleads time to remove them, the owner can charge a reasonable storage fee.

Obviously the new owner - after gasping in surprise at the stuff left behind - should give the vendor a reasonable chance to collect the items, but there is no real onus on them to do so. Equally obviously, if the vendor made it clear they really wanted the items and just ran out of time to clear them out, and begged for a few more days, it would be 'unreasonable' for the new owner to just dispose of them that same day - even tho' they may have the right.

So, my 'gut' says to reaffirm your offer for the goods you do want, and if this comes back as 'non', then let the purchase process continue. The TA10 will presumably then contain 'nothing' to be left behind, and then you just wait and see what transpires. If you walk in t'front door and it's still stuffed with furniture, you hold the much stronger hand, and can be pretty ruthless - awkward on collection dates, charging for skips, threatening storage fees...

But, if they are simply not responding positively before exchange, ready to agree some TA10 purchases, then I'd let it lie.