Council tax and old non recoverable debt?

Pliny88

Hi.  A legal ruling exists which says my local council can't pursue me for a decades old council tax debt of £618.00 they claim I owe them.  A debt relating to the first year council tax began until 31/03/1996.  

This was unpaid by me for a tiny little bedsit I rented during that period, that was actually just the end of a hall partitioned off, with a single bed in it that being the only furniture in it.  All during the time I rented that I received no letter informing me I was liable for a share of the council tax for the property.  My landlord when he took my deposit told me it was all bills included.  

Fast forward to July 2023 I decided I'd pay off my latest council tax balance in full using my online account. The first time I paid the screen froze and no email confirmation was received, so I checked my online council tax account a week later and the amount outstanding was also unchanged.  Assuming the previous payment had failed I paid it again and this time it went through as normal and my account registered the payment.  

However, when I received my next bank statement it was showing that both payments had been successful to my local council.  Naturally I attempted to get a refund for one of the payments over the phone, and then by going in to speak to their debt team.  The debt team informed me they were going to keep my overpayment because I owed the council that £618 and there was nothing I could do about it. 

This was the first I was ever made aware of the debt despite claiming housing benefit and council tax for another six properties over the years after I'd left the bedsit.  The council never once informed me of this liability despite knowing my address for most of that time or I'd have paid it as I always do.  

I was told over the phone the first payment had not gone into my regular council tax account, but had been deposited in an irregular account she couldn't tell me the name of, or why that had occurred.  So, after speaking to the debt team about that I checked my account again to see if the old debt for 1993 - 1996 had been reduced by the amount overpaid.  It had not and to this day it is still showing £0.00 paid as last payment against that debt. 

I phoned again a few months back and asked why this was?  Also requesting a receipt for my money detailing where it was and what use it had been put to.   I was promised this but still haven't received it.  Any advice in my favour or not will be gratefully received so I can either get my money back, or write it off knowing it to be hopeless.  

Thanks.

Alderbank

Pliny88 said:

Hi.  A legal ruling exists which says my local council can't pursue me for a decades old council tax debt of £618.00 they claim I owe them.  A debt relating to the first year council tax began until 31/03/1996.  

This was unpaid by me for a tiny little bedsit I rented during that period, that was actually just the end of a hall partitioned off, with a single bed in it that being the only furniture in it.  All during the time I rented that I received no letter informing me I was liable for a share of the council tax for the property.  My landlord when he took my deposit told me it was all bills included.  

Fast forward to July 2023 I decided I'd pay off my latest council tax balance in full using my online account. The first time I paid the screen froze and no email confirmation was received, so I checked my online council tax account a week later and the amount outstanding was also unchanged.  Assuming the previous payment had failed I paid it again and this time it went through as normal and my account registered the payment.  

However, when I received my next bank statement it was showing that both payments had been successful to my local council.  Naturally I attempted to get a refund for one of the payments over the phone, and then by going in to speak to their debt team.  The debt team informed me they were going to keep my overpayment because I owed the council that £618 and there was nothing I could do about it. 

This was the first I was ever made aware of the debt despite claiming housing benefit and council tax for another six properties over the years after I'd left the bedsit.  The council never once informed me of this liability despite knowing my address for most of that time or I'd have paid it as I always do.  

I was told over the phone the first payment had not gone into my regular council tax account, but had been deposited in an irregular account she couldn't tell me the name of, or why that had occurred.  So, after speaking to the debt team about that I checked my account again to see if the old debt for 1993 - 1996 had been reduced by the amount overpaid.  It had not and to this day it is still showing £0.00 paid as last payment against that debt. 

I phoned again a few months back and asked why this was?  Also requesting a receipt for my money detailing where it was and what use it had been put to.   I was promised this but still haven't received it.  Any advice in my favour or not will be gratefully received so I can either get my money back, or write it off knowing it to be hopeless.  

Thanks.

Welcome to the forum.

If an authority has issued a demand for council tax but the debt remains unpaid they can apply for a liability order. In England & Wales they must apply within 6 years of the debt being due. A liability order is an order of the magistrates' court. Once the authority has obtained a liability order from the magistrates' court, it has unlimited time to enforce the debt.
When was the demand for your bedsit issued and when did the council apply for the liability order? If more than 6 years elapsed between them you can complain to the local authority about its application for a liability order, and ask it to quash the order. Point out that regulation 34 and the Regentford judgment mean the authority was not entitled to a liability order.

I assume this is the 'legal ruling' you refer to?

You say your flat was quite small, referring to it as 'a tiny little bedsit'. Are you claiming that in some way it was too small for council tax? If so that would fail. Band A has no minimum size or value.

Newcad

I would say that the fact they hadn't previously chased you for payment of the debt is not relevant.
The 6-year limitation may prevent then from chasing you for payment,(or may not if they did get a liability order back then).
However the debt itself still exists whether they can chase you for it or not.

You appear to have chosen to make 2 payments yourself.
 OK you thought the first hadn't gone through, but nobody pushed you to make the second..

One payment was enough to cover your current CT bill, so the council would have been wondering why you made a second.

But look; there's an old debt and so we can regard the extra payment as a voluntary payment to pay off some of that debt.
It appears to me that in the circumstances they were/are quite entitled to do that.

Remember that they haven't chased you for any payment toward the CT debt, you made the payment to your CT account yourself.

It should of course be noted as a payment against the debt and reduce the outstanding debt balance accordingly.
But I doubt that you will be getting your payment back now.

I think that I'd put it down as you making an unfortunate (costly) mistake.
Next time any payment appears to have failed maybe give it longer to see if the payment has actually gone through or not, and if it hasn't then query why not before making another.

HillStreetBlues

What method of payment did you use?

Pliny88

Paid by debit card. 

Pliny88

HillStreetBlues said:

What method of payment did you use?

Paid by debit card..

Alderbank

Newcad said:

The 6-year limitation may prevent then from chasing you for payment,(or may not if they did get a liability order back then).
However the debt itself still exists whether they can chase you for it or not.

But look; there's an old debt and so we can regard the extra payment as a voluntary payment to pay off some of that debt.
It appears to me that in the circumstances they were/are quite entitled to do that.

The OP has not revealed which country these events occurred in.

Here in Scotland the law is different; our law of prescription says that after 5 years the debt is actually extinguished, it disappears entirely. So there wouldn't be an old debt. It might be harder to argue that the second payment was a voluntary ex gratia payment made to help the council out following the council tax increase freeze in Scotland.

If the OP is in England or Wales I agree entirely with your post.

HillStreetBlues

Pliny88 said:

HillStreetBlues said:

What method of payment did you use?

Paid by debit card..

If the old and new account numbers are different you could try to claim a Chargeback from your card company.
You paid into account number XXX but when you check the money isn't there, and you didn't agree to them moving that money to a different account, as an overpayment should roll onto the next council tax year.

kaMelo

That's a terrible idea, on what basis is there a legitimate claim under charge back rules?

HillStreetBlues

Because payment was for the current CT account, the OP never gave permission for any other use, certainly wasn't a voluntary payment towards anything else.

kaMelo

HillStreetBlues said:

Because payment was for the current CT account, the OP never gave permission for any other use, certainly wasn't a voluntary payment towards anything else.

That's as maybe but chargeback is neither a legal right or a catchall. It's essentially about a breach of contract and the OP would need to convince their bank the council had somehow breached a contract with them. Even if they did convince their bank the council could bat the claim away with proof of a debt for services rendered.

The only think I see making a difference here is as @Alderbank said. If the OP is in Scotland then the law states any debt is extinguished after five years.