Grant of Confirmation

Bigsuit

With the great help of this forum I submitted a grant of confirmation form C1 to my local Court a few months ago. The process is now concluded but it was twice returned to me, wrongly in my view, and I would appreciate comment on this, specifically the second return. Note there was heritable estate (property) and a mortgage liability.

First return had an accompanying letter stating that my application does not comply with the guidance, that I should refer to the HMRC guidance and stated "in the inventory list the mortgage amount should not be deducted from the value of the property." Having studied this guidance diligently in initial preparation I knew that the guidance (page 9) does in fact give instruction to deduct the mortgage on the inventory list and show only the net value. I took the letter, form and HMRC guidance to  the Court. They accepted this and took the form back with no modifications. Unfortunately  it goes to the back of the queue.

The second return accompanying letter stated that on page 1 the Total estate for confirmation value should be the same as the inventory value mentioned above which is net. The guidance states that this value  on page 1 should be the GROSS value of the estate. The court wanted it changed to NET. Being frustrated with the delay I went back to the court and put a line thro the gross value and changed to net. I asked if paragraph 6  on the declaration page 2 should also be changed as the guidance states that it should correspond with the total estate for confirmation value on page 1.  I was advised yes and did so.  Again the guidance clearly states that this value on page 2 should be GROSS. Once more to the back of the queue.

I finally received confirmation after approx. 9 weeks overall. I believe that  the court was wrong (for the second time) with the second return and would appreciate a knowledgeable view on this.

buddy9

Looks like you have encountered some incompetency.

The guidance in form C3 (page 9) is that debt should be shown in the inventory, then the debt should be added to the total in box 11 and the debt then entered in box 13.

The C1 form is an HMRC form and the guidance (C3) is also owned by HMRC. However guidance is also contained in Currie on Confirmation of Executors. And the SCTS actively promotes the guidance in Currie. The SCTS website references Currie and internal SCTS staff guidance is crammed full of references to Currie.

Currie offers two different ways of dealing with standard security debt for which the deceased was liable

1. In the Inventory entry, the debt against the property entry and deduct from the property value, or

2. The full property value is shown in the inventory entry and the mortgage debt is deducted in box 13 on page 4.

Currie offers the first option as a way of reducing the gross confirmation value.

You understandably, followed the guidance in the C3, were told this in incorrect but then the SCTS backed down and admitted that you had followed the guidance.

The totals on page 1 and page 4 should be gross values. It is bizarre that SCTS suggested otherwise.

SCTS has internal guidance which confirms that the total estate for confirmation on page 1 should be the gross value before deduction of debts.

I think you have dealt with someone who was making it up as they went along.

Which sheriff court messed you about?

You might consider emailing the sheriff clerk and asking for an apology for the inconvenience caused. If you do, then the answer would be of interest.

Bigsuit

Thanks buddy9, you've been of great help to myself and others navigating our way thro' this process. It is Greenock Sheriff Court. I will likely now prepare a formal complaint. It is indeed bizarre that they sent letters referring me to HMRC guidance but they don't follow it themselves. I'll do this soon and update this thread appropriately. 

Rosysmudge

C1 AND IN WILL LIFERENT TRUST

Hoping someone here can help.  This thread has been absolutely invaluable thus far!

I am in the process of completing the C1 for my late dad’s estate.  It is a fairly straightforward estate, except for the fact that my late mothers Will included an in-Will liferent trust for her share of their property. The in-Will trust named me, my brother and my dad as trustees with Dad having life use as the liferenter.  It is for the property only, with no other assets and terminates on the death of my father with my brother and I named as beneficiaries.  

Mum predeceased Dad and her estate was granted Confirmation in 2014, just after her death.  We’re awaiting the title deed from mum’s solicitor at the time, but I think the title deeds have remained in mum and dads’ names as joint owners.  Dad was advised they did not require to be changed as long as they were kept alongside mums’ confirmation as her Will advises of the establishment of the liferent trust.  Mum and Dad also did an Evacuation of Special destination at the time they set up their Wills which I have. 

Dad's entire estate value is under the IHT threshold so is an excepted estate.

·       Property valued at £180,000

·       Liferent trust value from mums will for one half of the property therefore £90,000. 

I am struggling with how I should present this on the C1.  I know for IHT purposes that the value of any trust must be included in the estate. 

Questions

·       Where on the C1 should this information be included and what wording should be used? Should it be shown in the inventory of heritable estate or elsewhere (as with excess gifts) and simply included in the relevant figures’ boxes (net or gross?)

·       Should the value of the trust in the C1 be presented as its entire value of my mother’s share held in trust or one third which is what my father’s share of the trust would be? 

I’m really trying to avoid using a solicitor for this but appreciate trusts can make things complicated.  I also want to avoid the dreaded IHT400 but I’m confident from my research that an in-will trust does not require separate reporting if the trust value is under £250k and the entire estate remains under the IHT threshold once the trust value is included.

Has anyone done a C1 with a liferent trust?  Any advice appreciated before I shell out for legal advice.  I’m sure all the answers are out there in the guidance but putting it all together is the headache!  

Bigsuit

Regards my post above I have submitted a formal complaint to Greenock Sheriff Court.

Pandamom

Hi all, I am filling in the C1 form after the death of my mum. She had a couple of joint bank accounts with dad (still alive) and I added these to the form with half the value on date of death. However now not sure if this is right - did mum's half pass straight to dad on death so no need for them to be on the form?  Also they are English banks/branches and read somewhere that not subject to Scottish law.  But then the form does ask for assets in Scotland/England/Wales.  Neither of the banks asked us for anything when we put the accounts into dad's sole name recently.  Any advice would be great, thanks.

buddy9

Pandamom said:

Hi all, I am filling in the C1 form after the death of my mum. She had a couple of joint bank accounts with dad (still alive) and I added these to the form with half the value on date of death. However now not sure if this is right - did mum's half pass straight to dad on death so no need for them to be on the form?  Also they are English banks/branches and read somewhere that not subject to Scottish law.  But then the form does ask for assets in Scotland/England/Wales.  Neither of the banks asked us for anything when we put the accounts into dad's sole name recently.  Any advice would be great, thanks.

Succession in respect of moveable estate is subject to the law of domicile.

While control of the accounts has passed to dad, there is a presumption of equality of ownership and therefore a half share of each account value at date of death is likely to be a suitable entry on the inventory.