Just for interest...(none political)....ifMeans testing SP, what minimum income level would you set?

Sea_Shell

I can't see how it can ever be taken away, realistically.

Todays workers effectively pay the SP of the retirees.    You have no 'pot' of your own NI payments to call on.

Could you really tell every school leaver (eg. from this point on) that you will not be entitled to any SP when you reach ...80!!     You must make your own provision.

BUT, we still need to you make NI payments, as you need to pay for those who are already getting the benefit of the SP.  

Sorry, not sorry!! 

kimwp

Sea_Shell said:

I can't see how it can ever be taken away, realistically.

Todays workers effectively pay the SP of the retirees.    You have no 'pot' of your own NI payments to call on.

Could you really tell every school leaver (eg. from this point on) that you will not be entitled to any SP when you reach ...80!!     You must make your own provision.

BUT, we still need to you make NI payments, as you need to pay for those who are already getting the benefit of the SP.  

Sorry, not sorry!! 

It's a pyramid scheme. The population needs to keep recruiting/having children to pay the people who joined the scheme/life earlier.

westv

Sea_Shell said:

I can't see how it can ever be taken away, realistically.

Todays workers effectively pay the SP of the retirees.    You have no 'pot' of your own NI payments to call on.

Could you really tell every school leaver (eg. from this point on) that you will not be entitled to any SP when you reach ...80!!     You must make your own provision.

BUT, we still need to you make NI payments, as you need to pay for those who are already getting the benefit of the SP.  

Sorry, not sorry!! 

Or more likely you'd have to tell them that they'd only get a SP if they didn't save too much into a pension pot and get too much retirement income!!

OldScientist

Sea_Shell said:

I can't see how it can ever be taken away, realistically.

Todays workers effectively pay the SP of the retirees.    You have no 'pot' of your own NI payments to call on.

Could you really tell every school leaver (eg. from this point on) that you will not be entitled to any SP when you reach ...80!!     You must make your own provision.

BUT, we still need to you make NI payments, as you need to pay for those who are already getting the benefit of the SP.  

Sorry, not sorry!! 

There is already widespread belief that the state pension will not exist, be reduced or only available at greater ages for current school leavers (e.g., see https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2023/10/19/half-of-savers-believe-state-pension-won-t-exist-for-young-people/).

westv

OldScientist said:

Sea_Shell said:

I can't see how it can ever be taken away, realistically.

Todays workers effectively pay the SP of the retirees.    You have no 'pot' of your own NI payments to call on.

Could you really tell every school leaver (eg. from this point on) that you will not be entitled to any SP when you reach ...80!!     You must make your own provision.

BUT, we still need to you make NI payments, as you need to pay for those who are already getting the benefit of the SP.  

Sorry, not sorry!! 

There is already widespread belief that the state pension will not exist, be reduced or only available at greater ages for current school leavers (e.g., see https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2023/10/19/half-of-savers-believe-state-pension-won-t-exist-for-young-people/).

"Widespread belief" doesn't make it any more likely.

MK62

The ii GBRS report is interesting, but on the subject of the state pension still existing for today's young people, it's still just speculation, and no more valid than anyone else's speculation.

If government phased out the state pension completely for today's young people, but still expected those young people to pay towards the state pensions of current pensioners, they would effectively be turning the UK state pension into a giant compulsory ponzi scheme.

The real issue we have in the UK is that while it's generally known and accepted that for several reasons, the current state pension system is unsustainable over the long term, no government is willing to grasp the nettle and do something about it, preferring to kick the can down the road for fear of negative reaction at the ballot box. In my view, the only way forward is to set up an independent state pension review body, who can take the issue out of the political arena and come up with a viable long term solution.....and hopefully prevent future politicians from meddling.

OldScientist

westv said:

OldScientist said:

Sea_Shell said:

I can't see how it can ever be taken away, realistically.

Todays workers effectively pay the SP of the retirees.    You have no 'pot' of your own NI payments to call on.

Could you really tell every school leaver (eg. from this point on) that you will not be entitled to any SP when you reach ...80!!     You must make your own provision.

BUT, we still need to you make NI payments, as you need to pay for those who are already getting the benefit of the SP.  

Sorry, not sorry!! 

There is already widespread belief that the state pension will not exist, be reduced or only available at greater ages for current school leavers (e.g., see https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2023/10/19/half-of-savers-believe-state-pension-won-t-exist-for-young-people/).

"Widespread belief" doesn't make it any more likely.

True, but it does prepare the ground and is, potentially, a self-fulfilling prophecy...

JoeCrystal

OldScientist said:

There is already widespread belief that the state pension will not exist, be reduced or only available at greater ages for current school leavers (e.g., see https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2023/10/19/half-of-savers-believe-state-pension-won-t-exist-for-young-people/).

The same belief existed three decades ago. I remember my teacher complaining that the state pension wouldn't be around when he retired. And you know, it would be the same again three decades from now. While rationally, I am aware that the state pension would still be around, although not necessarily with the same terms, I am sagacious enough to consider that it is better to plan to assume that the state pension may not be around at that point.  

OldScientist

MK62 said:

The ii GBRS report is interesting, but on the subject of the state pension still existing for today's young people, it's still just speculation, and no more valid than anyone else's speculation.

If government phased out the state pension completely for today's young people, but still expected those young people to pay towards the state pensions of current pensioners, they would effectively be turning the UK state pension into a giant compulsory ponzi scheme.

The real issue we have in the UK is that while it's generally known and accepted that for several reasons, the current state pension system is unsustainable over the long term, no government is willing to grasp the nettle and do something about it, preferring to kick the can down the road for fear of negative reaction at the ballot box. In my view, the only way forward is to set up an independent state pension review body, who can take the issue out of the political arena and come up with a viable long term solution.....and hopefully prevent future politicians from meddling.

Although it should be pointed out that it is only problematic if longevity continues to increase - the rate of increase has generally slowed over the last decade or so, and longevity has actually fallen in some geographical areas of the UK, so future costs may not be as much as projected (e.g., it is interesting, to some of us anyway, to compare the ONS life expectancy projections from 15 years ago with those now).

One way that longevity may decrease is through rationing of access to medical treatment either through cost (as in the US system) or through provision (as in the UK system).

MK62

......it's not just life expectancy alone though, the demographics are also changing.....even if life expectancy remained constant, the support ratio (the number of people above SP age vs the number of working age) would still increase......

OBR projections suggest that the cost of the SP will increase from 4.8% of GDP in 21-22 to 8.1% over the following 50 years.......it's up to governments (at least atm) to decide if this is sustainable over that time period. Obviously there are a lot of assumptions going on here, but if the best data available suggests this is going to be the case, perhaps we (as a nation) should be listening and, if deemed unsustainable, taking action now rather than keep kicking the can down the road.