Octopus direct debit guarantee.

MattMattMattUK

Ildhund said:

born_again said:

Why would they need to review your DD every 3 months? 

To check whether the usage pattern has deviated from that expected. There are all sorts of things that could radically alter the usage pattern, but unless someone looks, it might go unnoticed and leave you with a DD that's far too high or too low: install a roof-full of solar panels, a heat pump or a wood burner, acquire an EV, take a profligate live-in lover ... 

People are unlikely to do those every three months though as they are significant changes of circumstance. Reviewing every three months is excessive, equally having a significant change of circumstances would normally be a sensible point for one to review things. 

Qyburn

MattMattMattUK said:

.. Reviewing every three months is excessive, ..

Maybe, maybe not, but I wouldn't argue that point. What I do take issue with is suppliers that don't account for use at all, even on an estimated basis, except once a year. So the customer sees their credit balance building up month by month until suddenly the supplier deducts the cost for 12 months of energy.

TheBanker

Ildhund said:

born_again said:

Why would they need to review your DD every 3 months? 

To check whether the usage pattern has deviated from that expected. There are all sorts of things that could radically alter the usage pattern, but unless someone looks, it might go unnoticed and leave you with a DD that's far too high or too low: install a roof-full of solar panels, a heat pump or a wood burner, acquire an EV, take a profligate live-in lover ... 

Surely none of those things would go un-noticed to the customer, who should monitor their own usage (which is dead easy with a smart meter).

When I bought an EV, I knew my electricity usage would go up. I worked out how much extra electricity I thought I would use and asked Octopus to increase my Direct Debit. I kept an eye on it and after a few months realised I had mis-calculated and was paying too much (because I'd also switched to Go, and not taken account of being able to load shift things like laundry to the cheaper rate). So I asked them to reduce the DD. I could have asked for a refund of the excess but as we were heading into Winter I didn't bother. 

I have smart meters so it's very easy to track how much I'm using vs my DD/balance. It's very easy to adjust the DD through the Octopus ap, and quite easy* to request a refund of excess credit. With Octopus it's also easy to make an additional one-off payment if you've had a high usage month that doesn't reflect your typical consumption - I did this when I was without a working gas heating system for a few weeks during a cold winter, I knew my additional electricity consumption would cost more than the saving in gas, but as it was a temporary situation didn't need to increase my DD as usage would rever to normal once the gas heating was working again. 

Whilst the energy companies have a role to play in making sure DDs are set at the correct level, surely customers have a role to play as well. Smart Meters make this very easy compared to the days when you had to clear all the junk out of the cupboard under the stairs to read the meter, which for me inevitably involved banging my head on the door frame and lots of swearing... 

I strongly believe that a lot of the 'complaints' we see about Direct Debits are as a result of:
1. Customers who don't have smart meters but not submitting regular meter readings
2. Customers not understanding that the DD is basically 1/12 of the estimated annual energy cost so you pay more and build up credit over the summer to cover higher usage in Winter
3. Customer who do 1 and understand 2 but still not looking at their bills and asking themselves whether the amount is right
4. Customers who make a change to their property/usage (e.g. buying an EV, replacing their boiler, starting to work from home, extending their household...) yet assume their energy usage will remain exactly the same as it was before.

So I think educating customers is a key part of what needs to happen and that's where the likes of Martin Lewis can help. In fact, I wonder if this is one of the reasons Octopus have that silly 'Wheel of Fortune' game - it encourages people to access their app/account at least once a month so they can see how much credit/debt they have.

*I say 'quite easy' because the online refund request never works for me. However I've sent emails which have been dealt with without objection within a couple of days.

TheBanker

Qyburn said:

MattMattMattUK said:

.. Reviewing every three months is excessive, ..

Maybe, maybe not, but I wouldn't argue that point. What I do take issue with is suppliers that don't account for use at all, even on an estimated basis, except once a year. So the customer sees their credit balance building up month by month until suddenly the supplier deducts the cost for 12 months of energy.

Which suppliers do this? Every supplier I've been with has issued a bill at least quarterly, based on either actual readings or estimates. Obviously the accuracy of the bill is dependent on the customer either having a Smart Meter or submitting regular meter readings. 

born_again

Ildhund said:

born_again said:

Why would they need to review your DD every 3 months? 

To check whether the usage pattern has deviated from that expected. There are all sorts of things that could radically alter the usage pattern, but unless someone looks, it might go unnoticed and leave you with a DD that's far too high or too low: install a roof-full of solar panels, a heat pump or a wood burner, acquire an EV, take a profligate live-in lover ... 

So my January usage is way higher then my April usage. Yet I would not want the DD to be adjusted downwards, as this is build up credit time.
Same as my August is way lower than my November usage, So I do not want it putting up.
What I want is to balance the DD so that I have enough credit to keep a constant DD.
A 3 month review is going to chuck that out of the window. Given normal usage.

Could this explain some of the totally random, seemingly plucked out of the air figures suppliers are coming up with?

To me 3 month review, you might as well be on the variable monthly billing. As you are never going to build up a meaningful credit (the whole point of this way of paying) & then face higher DD in winter. 

Yes I get people may add or remove things that effect usage. 

tim_p

When we were with BG and in early days of our solar system, we barely used any gas between Mar/April and Sept/Oct, just for hob cooking. Due to BGs 6 monthly bill review we were always paying around £40 DD for the summer and <£20 all winter!  It always worked out but the payments were at opposite seasons. 

matt_drummer

born_again said:

Ildhund said:

born_again said:

Why would they need to review your DD every 3 months? 

To check whether the usage pattern has deviated from that expected. There are all sorts of things that could radically alter the usage pattern, but unless someone looks, it might go unnoticed and leave you with a DD that's far too high or too low: install a roof-full of solar panels, a heat pump or a wood burner, acquire an EV, take a profligate live-in lover ... 

So my January usage is way higher then my April usage. Yet I would not want the DD to be adjusted downwards, as this is build up credit time.
Same as my August is way lower than my November usage, So I do not want it putting up.
What I want is to balance the DD so that I have enough credit to keep a constant DD.
A 3 month review is going to chuck that out of the window. Given normal usage.

Could this explain some of the totally random, seemingly plucked out of the air figures suppliers are coming up with?

To me 3 month review, you might as well be on the variable monthly billing. As you are never going to build up a meaningful credit (the whole point of this way of paying) & then face higher DD in winter. 

Yes I get people may add or remove things that effect usage. 

I doubt it works like that.

Every three months you can review the previous 12 months usage and this will show whether it is stable, increasing or reducing. They won't be basing the new DD on the the three months usage.

Scripto

I have just joined this forum for the purpose of another pressing matter and while I am here I will chip in on Octopus.

Been with them three years on variable rate and of course the monthly payments vary. What I never twigged until recently, the sums collected each month grossly excessive. They claim they are helping people to budget by spreading payments out. It dawned on me one day that this is complete gibberish. I had never bothered to check.

I glanced at an email one day and noted I was more than £500 in credit. I ran a check and on average over the previous 12 months I was more than £350 per month in credit. Meter readings supplied manually and always within 24 hours on demand. One month I was more than £700 in credit when I checked my records.

Confronted Octopus with this and they published a pathetic (insulting actually) response. They offered ‘variable’ direct debit. This is a curious expression (also quoted  by Ofgem). There is no such thing as a variable direct debit. Direct debits are variable by definition. That would be like suggesting we wash using wet water. Water is wet by definition.

Octopus did refund me over £300 promptly and henceforth will only charge me for the energy actually used. Never more than £200 anyway (dual-fuel) so I am far better off. Another loyal customer scam busted in my view.

NB: I wish they would change their goddam awful and  garish website  pages for black on white to facilitate less wasteful printing of screenshots if anyone wish to do so.

born_again

Scripto said:

I have just joined this forum for the purpose of another pressing matter and while I am here I will chip in on Octopus.

Been with them three years on variable rate and of course the monthly payments vary. What I never twigged until recently, the sums collected each month grossly excessive. They claim they are helping people to budget by spreading payments out. It dawned on me one day that this is complete gibberish. I had never bothered to check.

I glanced at an email one day and noted I was more than £500 in credit. I ran a check and on average over the previous 12 months I was more than £350 per month in credit. Meter readings supplied manually and always within 24 hours on demand. One month I was more than £700 in credit when I checked my records.

Confronted Octopus with this and they published a pathetic (insulting actually) response. They offered ‘variable’ direct debit. This is a curious expression (also quoted  by Ofgem). There is no such thing as a variable direct debit. Direct debits are variable by definition. That would be like suggesting we wash using wet water. Water is wet by definition.

Octopus did refund me over £300 promptly and henceforth will only charge me for the energy actually used. Never more than £200 anyway (dual-fuel) so I am far better off. Another loyal customer scam busted in my view.

NB: I wish they would change their goddam awful and  garish website  pages for black on white to facilitate less wasteful printing of screenshots if anyone wish to do so.

So have all your bills been estimates?

Octopus user area gives very clear data on the amount of credit you are in & also how to change your fixed monthly DD to a lower or higher amount.

‘variable’ direct debit. Is where Octopus (& other suppliers) generate a bill based on your usage & used by many people, who do not want a monthly DD. They prefer to pay for what they actually use.
So it is very much a thing.🤷‍♀️

Sadly when people do not check this is the result. So you can't blame the supplier for a lack of personal responsibility 😶‍🌫️

Scripto

Apologies for delay in replying.

Octopus have never needed to estimate my readings. Not even once in 3 years. I always respond to their requests for readings well within 24 hours. The exception of course relates to changes in tariff part way through a month when they have not asked me for a reading and choose to guess.

I have been with them for 3 years and they have had plenty of time to learn my consistent habits. I vaguely recall requesting a rebate well in the past when I once noted I was an obscene amount in credit. I expect people to behave ethically (naive perhaps). I should not have to do their work for them. Work that a well crafted algorithm could easily cope with. It is obviously deliberate behaviour.

Ofgem has been alerted to this unethical behaviour and have been offered the complete set of bills for 3 years so they can do their own fact checking. I knew I was on Direct Debit but never realised there are are now two different species of Direct Debit. This situation has been added to my scams and rip-off emails I circulate.