Civil Enforcement - failed to obtain a permit [resolved]

HoneydewLemon

Hi all, I've just joined this forum and it seems like a great place to ask for advice. I was hoping to post here yesterday but had to wait for my account to be approved (the last day to appeal was yesterday, which I have done!)

Anyway, to the point.

I received a Parking Charge Notice reminder letter on Friday - this was the first letter received, I never received the PCN that the reminder refers to. It is from Civil Enforcement and states the circumstances as 'Failed to obtain a permit in accordance with the notified terms.' The car park was for residential apartments, and the driver was visiting one of the tenants who lived there. The vehicle was in the car park for around an hour and a quarter.

As yesterday was the last day to appeal according to the letter I appealed via the CE website & used the 'one size fits all' appeal found in the newbies thread, I kept it word for word but added a short paragraph after stating,
  'The reminder notification I received, dated 13/08/24, arrived on 16/08/24 and this is the first and only instance of correspondence I have received on this matter. The alleged initial parking charge notice the reminder refers to is yet to arrive.'
  Does this seem ok?  I was hoping to ask advice before appealing but as I was at the deadline I figured I'd better just get it done - I don't expect they will accept the appeal but it should at least buy some time & didn't want to lose the option to appeal to POPLA.

Further context on what happened:

The driver was visiting friends & family who live in the apartment block. The landlord has recently installed ANPR & this is being managed by Civil Enforcement. Upon the first time of visiting since the ANPR was installed, the driver checked with the tenant to ask if it is ok to park there when visiting, the tenant confirmed that this is ok so long as they provided the landlord with the vehicle registration - the keeper did receive a PCN by post shortly after the first visit but after sending a copy of the PCN to the tenant, they showed the landlord who swiftly cancelled it, so no issues there.
  The PCN came from the 2nd visit - and before arriving the driver once again checked with the tenant who confirmed that it was ok & the landlord has the vehicle registration, however this visit resulted in the keeper receiving a PCN reminder letter through the post a full month after the incident date - although the reminder alleges that a PCN was issued just 8 days after the incident.
  I have tried to get this one cancelled by the landlord, and even spoke with them directly this time, but they would not cancel it as they said their tenant did not inform them of the visit, and they need to be informed each and every time there is a visit - the best they could do was they would 'try to get the amount reduced.'  It turns out that the tenant indeed did not inform their landlord as it's an electronic permit system & they'd already given the landlord the vehicle registration that it was 'on the system' and would be ok.

I feel like receiving an invoice for £100 seems grossly unfair for what amounts to a simple misunderstanding & miscommunication when it was a genuine and legitimate visit to someone that actually lives there, and a relatively short stay too!

I have spent as much time as possible in the last couple of days reading up on the newbies thread & as many similar cases as I could find but would greatly appreciate any help and advice on this as I'm very unsure on how strong a case I haven't had to deal with something like this before!

Thanks in advance

Gr1pr

Its basically parking without permission, because the tenant either can or cannot allow visitors to park on that private property, usually by having a permit system or a whitelist, so you should be finding out what those visitors arrangements really are, because not ensuring that it was done led to the PCN 

I get that the tenants misled you, but its still a breach of the parking contract on that private property, in the eyes of CEL, who were doing their contractual job.  The driver agreed to the terms and conditions on the new signs by conduct. ( By the act of parking there)

Check if the NTK PCN letter is POFA compliant or not, plus ideally get pictures of the new signs, without getting another PCN, by parking elsewhere on a public street and walk further 

There may be no easy option here, mistakes are common but its the driver's responsibility, they may be liable, despite being misled by a tenant who is bound by the tenancy agreement 

Coupon-mad

You won't be paying.

ANPR at residential addresses need banning.  Completely unworkable.

HoneydewLemon

It's nearly a 2 hour round trip for me to go back and look at the signs.

I've attached a photo of what I received in the post, with all personal info & a couple of small QR codes redacted. (The back of the letter is blank)

Having read a few other threads on here it seems that CE have fallen foul of being POFA compliant before, so I was hoping there may be grounds to appeal to POPLA on that front, but I'm still trying to get my head round it.

The driver was misled by the tenant, but not deliberately so as the tenant fully believed there would be no issue, and the driver felt there was no good reason to doubt them on this.

KeithP

Just an observation -

That reminder notice shows two pictures of the parked car.
In one, the vehicle is facing the camera, and in the other it's facing away.

HoneydewLemon

KeithP said:

Just an observation -

That reminder notice shows two pictures of the parked car.
In one, the vehicle is facing the camera, and in the other it's facing away.

The camera is positioned at the entrance to the car park. It shows the car entering, and later leaving.

HoneydewLemon

I have no idea whether the alleged initial notice was simply never sent, or lost in the post, but it has been very frustrating receiving this reminder so close to the appeal/ payment deadlines. I guess there is no way to prove lack of delivery though.

Coupon-mad

Just appeal as keeper and ask for a copy of the original PCN.

Johnersh

i would be very surprised if the lease required a landlord to give permission for visitors for each and every visit, which likely interferes with the tenants enjoyment of the property.

does the postman email each morning? 

The reg details were never entered on a system because the o/p never did the first time, instead getting a PCN cancelled. That’s the issue.

signage is important. If there was no signage at the perimeter and no grace periods, in theory the  o/p becomes liable merely driving on to the land, which is unlikely to be sustainable. 

The o/p may not be nearby but their friend should take all the photos needed and do a witness statement as necessary 

HoneydewLemon

Coupon-mad said:

Just appeal as keeper and ask for a copy of the original PCN.

I already appealed as keeper via their website. I used the 'one size fits all' appeal template found in the newbies thread. I added a bit at the end stating I have not received the PCN their letter refers to, but I did not explicitly ask for them to send a copy of the PCN.
  There doesn't appear to be any other way of contacting them, so I guess I just wait for now.

Coupon-mad

Odd. PPCs all have a data privacy webpage.