Penalty notice, Apcoa, Epsom station car par

justus111

 Someone received one on the windscreen. Old user, can not restore my account. Spent hours reading the NEWBIE and other threads, not sure what to do in my case still hence writing here. It was not a registered keeper driving the car. People who were in had disabled badge displayed, were on a way to Guy's hospital, one of them very ill. The info on website states that disabled badge holders can park in any bay (other than season ticket holders), signage at the car park was confusing, no disabled bays found at all, parked in a bay that transpired to be a season ticket holder one. 
It is not clear to me whether the keeper of vehicle would better do nothing and the ticket would just expire in 6 months? Or whether the keeper can avoid responsibility by stating they were not driving it and not naming who was? Or just appealing to apcoa on the grounds that signage was obscure and there was a lot of it? ( very confusing tbh, especially when people do not have an hour to go through it meticulously and phone for clarifications/decide that it is too unclear and better park elsewhere)?
It does not mention POFA but does it surely mean that keeper is off the hook because of it ?
I feel guilty in asking this question because of all the capital  letters info on here and many exclamation marks; because I know how annoying it is when public asks the same and the same without going to trouble to do 2 minutes search. I have looked for hours and I still do not know ; usually I am far from stupid and if things are clear to me means either that they are difficult or not well explained or I have a moment which I do not often have. So no need to become angry with me please

Gr1pr

Just look for APCOA penalty notice threads on here that are at train stations, then use a recommended not POFA compatible template from those threads

POFA 2012 schedule 4 doesn't apply at railway stations, so no keeper liability 

No blabbing about who was driving, just a template appeal as keeper 

justus111

thank you for a prompt answer. Read them already and still was not sure whether it applies in this case or not . You mean that keeper is not obligated to tell who was driving? In that case I can find templates for a keeper appeal, thank your answering my question ! 

LDast

The PN will "expire" after 6 months. The point is to string it out for as long as possible. Submit an appeal as the Keeper on the last day. Try asking a question so that they have to come back to you and string that out too.

APCOA will not issue a private prosecution in the magistrates court because even if they won, any fine imposed would go to the public purse and not to the thieving bar stewards that APCOA are. They are simply hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that will capitulate at the threat of litigation.

Gr1pr

justus111 said:

thank you for a prompt answer. Read them already and still was not sure whether it applies in this case or not . You mean that keeper is not obligated to tell who was driving? In that case I can find templates for a keeper appeal, thank your answering my question ! 

Think of it this way 

Its railway land operated by a TOC, so POFA schedule 4 doesn't apply, its not relevant land, POFA does not apply where bylaws apply, be it ports, airports or train stations

Its a charge notice from a private parking company, not a TOC, in this case you said that its a penalty, so the appeal is based on those aspects 

There is no legal requirement to name the driver, so dont do it , don't infer it, don't imply it, don't reveal it 

As mentioned above, with penalty notices everything is done on the last minute, to string it out past the 6 months deadline, so no rushing 

Post your proposed template train station appeal below, for advice on using it as keeper , same as the advice in this thread 6 months ago 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6509297/apcoa-penalty-notice-at-railway-station/p1

Do we assume that the PCN was a postal notice. ?  Not a windscreen PCN. ? Your first post stated that it was a windscreen PCN. ?

The appeal can be made as keeper on day 26, otherwise you wait for the postal notice and appeal before that 28 day deadline 

justus111

yes it was a windscreen "penalty notice". What in my recount would make you think it was a postal notice? Sorry did not understand your 2 first sentences at all - they seem to contradict each other- first you say that railway is operated by TOC than you say it is not TOC. ( I have to go back to acronyms list as I do not remember what is TOC which does not help! )As far as I understood the right course of actions is to wait for the postal ticket ( if it ever comes, it has 58 days to come or something like that) and then the owner responds that the company has no right to ask them who was driving ( template), is it correct?
As you have not confirmed it in previous post (you thought that you were explaining it while to me it brings more questions than answers) I try to ask again now. 

Gr1pr

The TOC (  train operating company. )  could take you to magistrates court for a penalty notice , under railway bylaws 

Instead they contracted with APCOA to oversee operations, so a private parking company issued it, not the TOC themselves 

The postal notice is issued to the registered keeper, within 7 months, not 58 days, usually because the driver did not pay the windscreen notice promptly 

There is no legal requirement to give the drivers details 

There is no keeper liability on railway land that operates by a TOC under bylaws 

POFA 2012 schedule 4 does not apply on railway land 

There are bespoke railway template appeals in other railway land threads on here, probably dozens or hundreds of previous cases on MSE alone 

The advice is to wait it out past the 6 months deadline for Penalty notices, only ever responding at the last minute 

Coupon-mad

Yep: you certainly don't pay this, ever.

Wait for the NTO as long as you are the registered keeper and are sure that the V5C (logbook) has the correct address for you.

Then appeal ON THE LAST DAY.

Then appeal to POPLA ON THE LAST DAY.

Then ignore when you lose. 6 months will be almost up by then (due to you only appealing really slowly) and nothing will happen anyway with APCOA. 

lookbook

Gr1pr said:

justus111 said:

thank you for a prompt answer. Read them already and still was not sure whether it applies in this case or not . You mean that keeper is not obligated to tell who was driving? In that case I can find templates for a keeper appeal, thank your answering my question ! 

Think of it this way 

Its railway land operated by a TOC, so POFA schedule 4 doesn't apply, its not relevant land, POFA does not apply where bylaws apply, be it ports, airports or train stations

Its a charge notice from a private parking company, not a TOC, in this case you said that its a penalty, so the appeal is based on those aspects 

There is no legal requirement to name the driver, so dont do it , don't infer it, don't imply it, don't reveal it 

As mentioned above, with penalty notices everything is done on the last minute, to string it out past the 6 months deadline, so no rushing 

Post your proposed template train station appeal below, for advice on using it as keeper , same as the advice in this thread 6 months ago 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6509297/apcoa-penalty-notice-at-railway-station/p1

Do we assume that the PCN was a postal notice. ?  Not a windscreen PCN. ? Your first post stated that it was a windscreen PCN. ?

The appeal can be made as keeper on day 26, otherwise you wait for the postal notice and appeal before that 28 day deadline 

Very good easy to understand advice. 

justus111

Gr1pr said:

The TOC (  train operating company. )  could take you to magistrates court for a penalty notice , under railway bylaws 

Instead they contracted with APCOA to oversee operations, so a private parking company issued it, not the TOC themselves 

The postal notice is issued to the registered keeper, within 7 months, not 58 days, usually because the driver did not pay the windscreen notice promptly 

There is no legal requirement to give the drivers details 

There is no keeper liability on railway land that operates by a TOC under bylaws 

POFA 2012 schedule 4 does not apply on railway land 

There are bespoke railway template appeals in other railway land threads on here, probably dozens or hundreds of previous cases on MSE alone 

The advice is to wait it out past the 6 months deadline for Penalty notices, only ever responding at the last minute 

Thank you!
Out of curiosity - why would one respond at all as it is invalid after 6 months anyway?

Gr1pr

Nobody mentioned that it would be invalid, it may well be valid , just unenforceable 

As coupon mad told you, you are stringing them along to get it past the finishing line